WOW DID I OPEN UP A CAN OF WORMS WITH THIS QUESTION. LOTS OF DIFFERENT OPINIONS BUT I PUT TOGETHER A NICE 11/8TH Oz LOAD TODAY USING 14.5 GR OF CLAYS AND FIO 616 PRIMERS AND A CLAY BUSTER WAD. SHOT VERY NICELY. THANKS TO EVERY ONE FOR THEIR HELP. DOUG A question for all the very knowledgable reloaders out there. Being a wimp I want to reduce the recoil but still shoot 1 1/8th oz loads. I know that I can reduce the shot load and reduce recoil. I have done that and it works fine but now I want to load some 1 1/8th loads and am looking for the lowest recoil I can find at that shot weight.

Will reloading a formula found on the powder manufacturers charts that indicate lower pressure and lower speeds result in a reduction of recoil? I though I would ask the experts before I start going out and buying different wads and primers and trying different formulas. Just to make it clear. I am only going to use manufacturer approved combinations of powder, wads and primers. I am not going off on my own and experimenting. Can anyone give me any advice on this stuff. Thanks, Doug

The slower the shot the less recoil. really light loads go down to 1050 fps from the factory. I think that they could be loaded slower than that but not sure what type of breaking power you would have on the target. Try working with it a little. get some 1 1/8 wads and load up for different speeds and see how much reciol reduction you can feel with different loads. Recoil is a really subjective topic and i'm some others will chime in soon.

Bob

There are three ways to reduce recoil. Lower velocity, lower payload weight, add more weight to the gun. Thats it period. Its simple physics. Read the above link.

Wayne

Citadel;If I were you,I would get a recoil reducer in stead of doing it your way.A lite load of 1 ounce has enough force to break a target but trying to go lite on the powder with a o larger pay load won't do it.

Although slower powder do give perceived lesser recoil....

Big m is right,you could try some 800x.

Lower speed, yes; lower pressure, no

Lighter load at a slower speed, definitely.

Ignore any bull you hear about soft shooting primers, powders or wads. It don't mean a thing.

Keller

Does anyone know why a mininum pressure (PSI) is required to operate recoil operated autos, but not a certain velocity if pressure does not effect recoil?

Just always wanted to know is all.

Bob

Here we go again,this is gonna be good,save my seat...............

citadel:

BigM-Perazzi's comment is predicated on the notion that recoil is a cycle which happens over time. With slower burning powders, the cycle is spread over a slightly longer time frame than the equivalent cycle created by faster burning powders. The actual recoil is the same regardless of what powder is used. However, spreading the recoil over more time is believed by some to result in less "perceived" recoil.

Here's the rub. The difference in elapsed time for the slowest vs. fastest powder is so short as to be imperceptible to the shooter. If the time difference is imperceptible, any difference in perceived recoil would likely be imperceptible as well.

As always, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If someone perceives less recoil when using a slower powder, good for them. sissy

Perceived recoil is also called voodoo recoil.

jim brown

Thanks everyone. Some good ideas. Doug

Ok, since I'm getting Bitch-slapped here,

Winchester Super-handicap powder with a Downrange Windjammer wad @1255 fps gives less felt recoil than the same powder with another wad at the same fps.

The Downrange wad, being 8 gr lighter, produces less recoil due to the reduced weight of the ejecta....

so, actually, it's the wad, but, it's the powder recipe that contained that wad and happened to be less pressure...

I don't care for high recoil ether. So What I did was to go to 1oz loads at 1200 pfs with Clays. I have seen my score go up because of less fatigue from the 1 1/8 loads. If you must have 1 1/8 because of the mental handy cap think you will break more targets get a recoil reducer like PFS if it fits your gun. Or a soft touch. These recoil reducer work and then you my shoot what you want. I still think 1 oz loads work. I used then for trap sporting clays, Skeet and fitasc.

I would do a Google Search of Trap ShootersUSA magazine. Several of their writers have researched and written articles on this subject, as well as, given some sugested lite loads that are extremely effective. From the 16 yd. line, 7/8 oz. or 1 oz loads are more than efficient. I personally like 7/8 oz of #8 at 1200 fps, using Alliant Extra Lite, and or 1 oz. of #8's @ 1150 fps. Others will have a differant opinion, just be sure to follow reloading guide book.

WayneO and BigM are both correct... Velocity, Powder Weight, Ejecta Weight and Gun Weight... those are the variables - PSI is not a variable in the formula... Slower burning powders and recoil absorbing devices can help to affect perceived recoil, but the perception is subjective to each shooter... from Hodgdon...

...for your review and consideration,

Jay

Reduce the amount of pressure and you will reduce the amount of recoil. When you get to zero pressure you will have no recoil, I guarantee it. HMB

"The Downrange wad, being 8 gr lighter, produces less recoil due to the reduced weight of the ejecta...."

Keller

BigM:

If my post is part of what you're referring to as a b!tch slap, it absolutely wasn't intended to be. I'm not even sure I disagree with your original point. My only intent was to elaborate on your comment a bit and point out that some folks take exception to the theory.

Perceived recoil is one of many opinion issues related to reloading and shooting. What all those issues have in common is the inability to objectively measure and quantify results. By its very definition "perceived recoil" will mean different things to different people. It may not even be consistent from one day to another with same person.

My apologies if you perceived my first post as anything else.

sincerely,

sissy

Energy in = energy out! Energy pushing an object forward is going to push the supporting object backward. The rate at which the forward object accelerates is going to affect the rate at which it pushes the supporting object backwards, resulting in a jab, or a push in this case. Pressures may be the same by the time the shot is to the end of the barrel. It is more a matter of how fast that pressure builds. Again, energy in = energy out. In this case it is the rate at which the energy is applied. Even though time wise, we are talking milliseconds, between both of the final results, I believe we feel the difference, because our brains are capable of processing information much faster than that. Just as pushing the same weight slower, as in FPS reduces recoil. Same as pushing lesser weight at a higher speed would match the recoil, of a higher weight pushing it slower. What has less perceived recoil, the same shotgun shooting a 1oz. load going 1250 fps., or a shell producing 1145 fps. with 1 1/8oz.? Pressures may be close to the same, but I bet you would feel the recoil more with the 1oz. load. Then again if you push a 1oz. load the same speed as a 1 1/8oz., you will feel a lighter perceived recoil on the 1oz. load, but the pressures will be quite different. All of these scenarios would be based on the same powder for each, of different amounts. Slower burning powders I believe make a difference in the acceleration, and perceived recoil.

Here is another question. Why is it that the reason porting in barrels, is to stop muzzle jump by releasing pressure upward, but that pressure of a avg. 9000 psi. coming out of the muzzle in jet like propulsion, is rarely, or ever considered in the recoil equation? If I remember correctly, Neil Winston was one of the people who had the theory, or perception of two different recoils from one shot. This may be the reasoning. In this case would pressure amounts not make some difference? Watch the above video. At the eight second mark, and the double video, you can really see the recoil process of the top video.

Hold on, let me get some popcorn and a beverage.

Jay,

"WayneO and BigM are both correct... Velocity, Powder Weight, Ejecta Weight and Gun Weight... those are the variables - PSI is not a variable in the formula..." I agree that PSI is not in the formula AS WRITTEN. It is hidden. For how does one get velocity without pressure? Imagine an ejecta on its way out of the barrel. Is there anybody here who will disagree that the pressure BEHIND the ejecta is a lot greater than the pressure INFRONT of it? The greater that pressure difference, the greater the velocity. If the pressure is equal, no ejecta movement. Put another way, what causes the ejecta to move from breech to muzzle? I submit the answer is a pressure (or "force") differential.

Look at any reloading manual, and within a single powder and projectile weight choice, there is a direct relationship between psi and velocity. Yes, it may not be linear, but certainly is not inverse nor haphazard.

Chichay

Eventually everyone will need a G Squared!

Jim Skeel P/W Dealer/Distributor

WayneO nailed it,

Ejecta mass, (shot), velocity and gun weight are the variables that determine recoil.

The effective tricks outside of those variables include gun fit and mental conditioning.

Now what works ....... run 2 3/4 dram x 1 1/8 Oz trap loads and there won't be any targets you can't break. 1 Oz loads at the same speed will give you a nice break on recoil and are still very effective and all but the longest trap targets.

Sissy, not a problem, more directed toward jimmy Brown...

My solution to perceived recoil is load the gun with lite 7/8 oz, put the but against your nose and pull the trigger...

I guarantee I'll perceive less recoil with my shoulder load!!!

The 22 long rifle develops pressures about 3X that of a 12 ga shotgun. Does it kick 3X harder? The 600 nitro express and the 223 develop approximately the same pressure do they kick the same? They would if internal pressure caused recoil. Sure would save gas if you could push on the dash of your car and make it go but you can't.

jim brown

SPITTER

Jay, Remember, there is more than 1 reloading guide out there.. This is from Alliants, Kinda like a drunk deciding which post to lean on. Bob

Contributing to increased accuracy as well as the pleasantness of shooting is in two main areas:

1. This Reloaders’ Guide includes many reduced loads.

2. Our research indicates that the burning rate of powders has a modest effect on recoil. For example, whenever two or more powders are listed for the same load, the slower one usually is chosen by the expert shooter as giving milder felt recoil. An intriguing aspect of reloading at home is the freedom to assemble, for example, trap loads with Red Dot or Green Dot powder, then to shoot them alternately to decide which seems more comfortable.

I CAN push on the dash --trunk lid--hatch back--rear fender--etc. and make it go faster, because with "0" pressure from me or some other method of providing force i.e. pressure my car will remain motionless. Ross Puls

Ross, try it from inside the car and let me know how far you get.

jim brown

I hope the barrel magicians don't read this thread. We've just determined that backboring, lengthening the forcing cones, porting and all the other hoopla actually REMOVE weight, and therefore INCREASE recoil!

Red Dot or Green Dot .... I've used both for 1 1/8th oz. Favorite = from Alliant reloading guide = 16.5 grains red dot / Rem 209P primer / Fig 8 wad / Remington STS/Nitro hull = 1090 FPS 8300 PSI = Nice low recoil load for 16 yard singles or first shot of doubles.

Shooter R,

We've also been reminded that you can't make your car move by pushing on the dash while seated inside.

All,

Questions to ponder:

If a common housefly is transitioning by flight from the breadcrumb on the backseat to the empty bud can on the passenger side front floor board in a car motoring down the interstate at 75 MPH, how fast is he going?

What makes a balloon squirt all over the creation when it's let go after being inflated? Does this opposing motion constitute recoil? How about a ramjet engine?

Is the grimace and rearward movement of a child being screamed at by a parent for some transgression considered pressure induced recoil?

Have you ever tried to hold on to a fire hose connected to a p250 fire pump?

I do know that when I was a young boy that my sling-shot didn't have near as much recoil as my pellet gun did.

I miss Pat Ireland and Neil Winston..........

Guy Babin

In 50 years, it probably won't make a bit of difference to you anyway.

Don't complicate the time between now and then by pondering on it now.

Keller