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Posted By Posted Date/Time
zeroed4x 18-Oct-10 - 11:44 PM ET
Capt_ed 19-Oct-10 - 12:31 AM ET
Brian in Oregon 19-Oct-10 - 01:24 AM ET
halfmile 19-Oct-10 - 06:57 AM ET
RickN 19-Oct-10 - 07:54 AM ET
Unknown1 19-Oct-10 - 08:16 AM ET
Shooting Jack 19-Oct-10 - 08:28 AM ET
likes-to-shoot 19-Oct-10 - 08:55 AM ET
over the hill 19-Oct-10 - 09:28 AM ET
$$$SHTR 19-Oct-10 - 10:42 AM ET
timberfaller 19-Oct-10 - 11:33 AM ET
Unknown1 19-Oct-10 - 12:34 PM ET
Brian in Oregon 19-Oct-10 - 02:51 PM ET
ou.3200 19-Oct-10 - 03:32 PM ET
likes-to-shoot 19-Oct-10 - 04:03 PM ET
halfmile 19-Oct-10 - 04:53 PM ET
i_shoot 20-Oct-10 - 08:07 AM ET
ljutic73 20-Oct-10 - 09:45 AM ET
TX-MX 20-Oct-10 - 10:16 AM ET
Luvs2shoot 20-Oct-10 - 10:24 AM ET
Leo 20-Oct-10 - 11:14 AM ET
ou.3200 20-Oct-10 - 12:51 PM ET
Unknown1 20-Oct-10 - 01:26 PM ET
W.R.Buchanan 20-Oct-10 - 02:29 PM ET
abbielew 20-Oct-10 - 02:36 PM ET
Unknown1 20-Oct-10 - 03:44 PM ET
Tron 20-Oct-10 - 07:29 PM ET
lost & Dead 20-Oct-10 - 11:30 PM ET
Big Heap 20-Oct-10 - 11:45 PM ET
halfmile 21-Oct-10 - 09:07 AM ET
GunDr 21-Oct-10 - 09:50 AM ET
lost & Dead 21-Oct-10 - 10:32 PM ET
schwabby 22-Oct-10 - 01:24 AM ET
Unknown1 22-Oct-10 - 07:31 AM ET
hunter44 22-Oct-10 - 07:55 AM ET
Unknown1 22-Oct-10 - 08:08 AM ET
kenf 22-Oct-10 - 12:12 PM ET
JTEA 22-Oct-10 - 12:32 PM ET
Unknown1 22-Oct-10 - 04:29 PM ET
Unknown1 22-Oct-10 - 06:29 PM ET
lost & Dead 22-Oct-10 - 09:53 PM ET
kenf 23-Oct-10 - 09:58 AM ET
psfive 23-Oct-10 - 11:41 AM ET
Unknown1 23-Oct-10 - 02:39 PM ET
slotracer577 23-Oct-10 - 06:34 PM ET
dustmaker 23-Oct-10 - 09:06 PM ET
psfive 23-Oct-10 - 10:10 PM ET
dustmaker 23-Oct-10 - 10:31 PM ET
Unknown1 23-Oct-10 - 10:33 PM ET
ou.3200 23-Oct-10 - 11:00 PM ET
Shark 23-Oct-10 - 11:26 PM ET
Unknown1 24-Oct-10 - 08:18 AM ET
psfive 24-Oct-10 - 10:50 PM ET
Chugiakshooter 25-Oct-10 - 12:16 AM ET
Unknown1 25-Oct-10 - 10:17 AM ET
Hydrasports 25-Oct-10 - 08:34 PM ET
birdtracker 25-Oct-10 - 08:46 PM ET
Hydrasports 25-Oct-10 - 08:52 PM ET
Jon Reitz 25-Oct-10 - 08:56 PM ET
Unknown1 25-Oct-10 - 09:36 PM ET
oldgahchamp 25-Oct-10 - 11:42 PM ET
Unknown1 26-Oct-10 - 07:46 AM ET
Jon Reitz 26-Oct-10 - 08:13 AM ET
Pat Ireland 26-Oct-10 - 08:37 AM ET
Unknown1 26-Oct-10 - 09:47 AM ET
likes-to-shoot 26-Oct-10 - 11:00 AM ET
slic lee 26-Oct-10 - 11:30 AM ET
Unknown1 26-Oct-10 - 12:08 PM ET
dustmaker 26-Oct-10 - 06:21 PM ET
birdtracker 27-Oct-10 - 07:54 PM ET
Git-ER-Done 27-Oct-10 - 10:21 PM ET
Unknown1 27-Oct-10 - 11:11 PM ET


Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: zeroed4x
Date: Mon, Oct 18, 2010 - 11:44 PM ET
Website Address: http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/0/BF822DDBEC29C0DC852577BB005BAC0F

http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/0/BF822DDBEC29C0DC852577BB005BAC0F

More B.S. from Washington.

Soon you will have no choice but to use the new mandated E15 15% Ethanol fuel. Its more expensive than the 10% we are forced to use now. It has a huge list of negative effects including eating the rubber seals out of your in tank fuel pump as well as many others.

Vehicle warranties do not cover the damage caused by these fuels, they even state that using fuel with more than 10% will void your warranty.

Vehicles also do not obtain the same mileage with this type of fuel.

The cost of anything that is delivered will go up, like your groceries etc.

Enjoy compliments of the EPA S#it bags in Washington.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Capt_ed
Date: Tue, Oct 19, 2010 - 12:31 AM ET
Website Address:

They just started putting Ethanol in the regular gas up here in Canada. This past summer I bought 25,000 litres to run in the outboards at the fishing Lodge that I run. It was all my engineer could do to keep the outboards running half assed all summer. Our premium fuel is exempt so far but what a $hit pile of grief we had over this. Our Honda representative told us there would be no issues using the Ethanol and now Honda is rebuilding our fuel systems this winter.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Brian in Oregon
Date: Tue, Oct 19, 2010 - 01:24 AM ET
Website Address: http://www.ewg.org/biofuels/report/Ethanol-Health-Risks-and-Engine-Damage

Yet another example of the government using phony baloney science to justify their preconceived goals. E10 fuel is already causing more pollution in most vehicles, and now it's going to get even worse. The break point for producing more pollution than straight gasoline is at 3.8% less fuel economy. Under that amount, the vehicle produces less pollution, just as the government claims. If a vehicle gets 3.8% less fuel economy or worse, it makes significantly MORE pollution than with straight gasoline. So if you've noticed a 5% or even 10% drop in your fuel economy, and many do, you're actually making a lot more pollution.

The EPA does not care about this. I believe the reason is they have their marching orders, and that this is one way to drive older vehicles out of existence without actually passing unpopular legislation to do so. These older vehicles will have everything from poor fuel mileage, to not being able to pass pollution inspections, damage to pollution systems (early catalytic converters especially will burn out), fuel pump and other fuel system damage, and up to severe engine damage.

On top of this is the increased cost of producing ethanol in the first place. It takes more than a gallon of fuel to make a gallon of ethanol. This is because ethanol is not pumped out of the ground. It is grown. That requires a lot of machinery. Add to that fertilizer made from fuel byproducts, and land diverted from growing food and animal feed. So the costs of more expensive food have to be added. Mexico has been very critical of ethanol based fuel because of what it will do to the price of corn, which is a major staple in Mexico. (My counter to that is if Mexico wants cheaper corn, then they ought to start selling us lots of cheaper oil.)

The link has some interesting info.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: halfmile
Date: Tue, Oct 19, 2010 - 06:57 AM ET
Website Address:

Since it takes more petroleum energy to make ethanol than the return energy accomplished, it looks like the winners here are the Arabs, Chavez, and Archer Daniels Midland.

HM

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: RickN
Date: Tue, Oct 19, 2010 - 07:54 AM ET
Website Address:

Halfmile, add the farmers to that list also.

13 billion total corn crop and we use 4.7 billion for ethanol.

Corn is nearly $5 now and without the ethanol demand, we'd have $2 corn.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Unknown1
Date: Tue, Oct 19, 2010 - 08:16 AM ET
Website Address:

While what's being said about fuel mileage with ethanol is right, somebody needs to read the news article better:

It's probably coming, but not tomorrow.

http://eponline.com/articles/2010/10/15/epa-oks-sale-of-15-ethanol-fuel-in-model-years-2007-and-newer.aspx

MK

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Shooting Jack
Date: Tue, Oct 19, 2010 - 08:28 AM ET
Website Address:

There are still some stations that sell fuel without ethanol and if you use a boat motor and lawn tools you better find them as they will be ruined by the ethanol. Before I retired a couple of months ago I helped run a rental store as well as sporting goods and we were having a lot of trouble with our gas powered equipment. We received a bulletin from some of the power tool companies about ethanol usage. Just don't make sense. Jackie B.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: likes-to-shoot
Date: Tue, Oct 19, 2010 - 08:55 AM ET
Website Address:

I'm not sure what planet you guys are from but here in Iowa every gas station I've been to still has pumps that are NOT Ethanol blend. If no one buys it would there be a market for it??????????

Just for the record I've used the 10% blend since its came out and have had no problems in my vehicles, lawn mowers, weed eaters, etc. etc.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: over the hill
Date: Tue, Oct 19, 2010 - 09:28 AM ET
Website Address:

I heard or read awhile ago where a number of stations tested were in excess of 10% Ethanol content as stated on the pumps (Ohio).

IMO its a conspiracy to make us drive roller skates whether we want to or not.

Regards....Gerald

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: $$$SHTR
Date: Tue, Oct 19, 2010 - 10:42 AM ET
Website Address:

I found a station on an Indian Reservation that sells the non-Ethanol gas. It's all I use in my Yamaha outboard. The station is about 70 miles from my house so I fill up my boat and truck every time I go by. It's the same price as all the other regular gas.

Tomas

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: timberfaller
Date: Tue, Oct 19, 2010 - 11:33 AM ET
Website Address:

Last time I checked, corn is edible cude oil is not! It makes no sense to turn food products into auto fuel.

Since 10% is what we have to buy here in my state, I've lost 2-3 miles to the gallon. Car's are maintained and my driving style hasn't changed, so it has to be the fuel.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Unknown1
Date: Tue, Oct 19, 2010 - 12:34 PM ET
Website Address:

"Last time I checked, corn is edible cude oil is not! It makes no sense to turn food products into auto fuel."
No, it doesn't...and distilling ethanol from food crops is also old technology. It was developed because the alcohol potential of corn is well known and the technology already roughed in.

Now the technology is evolving and the industry is rapidly turning to cellulosic ethanol production: production of ethanol from non-food plants and crops, agricultural waste, and wood waste and by-products. Not only is the supply of these sources renewable but the process of producing the necessary heat relies on biomass (fermentation) instead of fossil fuels. South American and Asian countries have been producing alcohol this way for years and already have a jump on the technology.

Lots of info on Google: cellulosic ethanol

MK

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Brian in Oregon
Date: Tue, Oct 19, 2010 - 02:51 PM ET
Website Address:

likes-to-shoot, Oregon passed a law here that once local ethanol production reached a certain point, all gas stations would have to sell E10 in place of straight gasoline. Oregon then blew huge amounts of money subsidizing a private ethanol plant to achieve this goal. After the goal was met, the E10 requirement kicked in. Then shortly afterwards the plant went bankrupt because gasoline prices fell. But the E10 requirement, having been met, was never taken away. Note that this is statewide.

Prior to that, we had E10 mandated in the greater Portland area courtesy of the Oregon DEQ (Dept of Environmental Quality) for use in the winter months. So those of us in the area well knew how crappy E10 was.

One thing I quickly found was to never top off the tank on seldom used vehicles. My pickup truck probably gets only an average of 25 miles a month use. I use it mainly for hauling heavy materials or hauling yard debris. E10 would break down and become a very dark amber brown mess and the truck would run like crap. Literally you could not drive it around the block. I keep it almost empty now, and add fresh E10 each time I drive it. Vehicles that are driven more often do not have this problem.

And, if you get mandated to use E10 fuel, the first thing you want to do on an older vehicle is install a clear fuel filter before the carb. The ethanol will clean your gas tank of a lot of crud. If gasoline has made a varnish in the tank, this can peel off in flakes or sheets and clog up the carb. It's also what's probably causing the nasty dark fuel color in my pickup.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: ou.3200
Date: Tue, Oct 19, 2010 - 03:32 PM ET
Website Address:

No choice here in the east, it all contains ethanol. They use the "splash" method to mix it so some contains more than the 10%. Mileage on the vehicles I had before the changeover all dropped 10% or more in mileage so where is the savings in pollution or use of gasoline? EPA has WAAAY too much power over us.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: likes-to-shoot
Date: Tue, Oct 19, 2010 - 04:03 PM ET
Website Address:

Here in Iowa you can't hardly look anywhere without seeing a Ethanol plant and most of our service stations have three grades on each pump, Ethanol blend (10%), Regular grade and Premium grade. Others have basicly the same with some more premium grade choices. There are even producing Soy Diesel in various places in the state.

In all fairness I've never tried to find out what gas milage would be with regular gas since Ethanol blend had come out. One thing I do like about it is in the Winter you don't have to worry about freezing fuel lines.

Bill

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: halfmile
Date: Tue, Oct 19, 2010 - 04:53 PM ET
Website Address:

Around here all the brands have Super grade with no ethanol. Costs enought to negate any efficiency savings.

We do have a shell dealer with "all-gas" gasoline.

If you have a motorcycle with a plastic tan you shouln't use eth, same for saws and weed eaters.

HM

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: i_shoot
Date: Wed, Oct 20, 2010 - 08:07 AM ET
Website Address: http://mystarbrite.com/startron/

I have been using this in everything I own that runs on gas especially my 2 stroke engines. It's in the boating section at Wally World. $9 for 8 ozs. treats 128 gallons of gas.

It's good stuff, i_shoot

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: ljutic73
Date: Wed, Oct 20, 2010 - 09:45 AM ET
Website Address:

If this keeps up, there won't be enough farmland to grow enough crop to supply the ethenol and bio-diesel demand.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: TX-MX
Date: Wed, Oct 20, 2010 - 10:16 AM ET
Website Address:

I have taken many road trips and compared my gas mileage. While there are variables like wind, etc, my late model Chevy 1/2 ton gets about 1.5 mpg better mileage and accelerates much better on straight gas than it does on the ethanol blend.

In my neck of the woods our corn is very heavily irrigated at the cost of rapidly dropping water tables. The amount of water that goes into growing corn to be used for ethanol production is mind boggling. We are mining over 80% of our region's water supply (household use is less than 10%) to turn into ethanol. When the housewife can't get water out of her kitchen faucet, maybe we will stop this foolishness, but not before, I fear.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Luvs2shoot
Date: Wed, Oct 20, 2010 - 10:24 AM ET
Website Address:

Well, we have 2 choices, either make cars run on ethanol/alcohol properly, or drill more in the U.S. or we will forever be at the mercy of the Saudis and South Americans.

By the way don't worry about producing enough grain, if corn would consistently stay at $5.00 or more per bushel, millions of acres would likely come out of the CRP program, or not be put back in when a land owner's contract is done. For any of you thinking farmers are making a killing at $5.00 per bushel corn, you better check the investment that farmers have in their crop. You can't touch a new combine with the heads for less than $250,000.00 and it gets used about 4 to 5 weeks out of the year. Check seed and fertilizer prices too. Check the personal property tax rates in your county. Farming is not the gravy train that some may think it is.

As far as I am concerned lets grow our fuel and say pi$$ off to the Saudis and Venezuelans. If we can put a man on the moon, somebody ought to be able to make an engine run on some form of alcohol fuel mix. What do those top fuel cars run on? Too bad Werner Von Braun isn't still alive, he could have figured it out.

John

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Leo
Date: Wed, Oct 20, 2010 - 11:14 AM ET
Website Address:

Oh Good, more forced foolishness. Yes, the corn price is up to make poor grade fuel. That corn used to make food. Have you noticed also that beef is also up, Chicken is priced at what beef should be, and in todays news it said that catfish farms are going out of business because of feed costs. All the while red chinese food full of poisons is being made available here due to tax payer subsidized shipping programs. O golly gee!

I really like the mentality of our government. Force us to pay more for fuel that is not as good, eventually forcing us to be new cars that we do not want and cannot afford. And for all of this benefit we get to pay more for food, out of our lesser retirements because the government conspired with the big banking system to steal our 401k money.

Just think how lucky I feel to have a government that is so strong and wise and cares so much about me. I cannot hardly wait to experience first hand the brilliant healthcare that we all get for free (after they garnish all of our pay checks) Managing all that take home pay was too much bother anyway.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: ou.3200
Date: Wed, Oct 20, 2010 - 12:51 PM ET
Website Address:

Ethanol is not the answer!

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Unknown1
Date: Wed, Oct 20, 2010 - 01:26 PM ET
Website Address:

...Cellusosic ethanol...Google it, learn something and stop complaining about corn...corn is old technology...soon you can go back to selling it to the rest of the world.

Ethanol isn't the answer but much of South America runs on it. Much of Europe runs on diesel. Americans are too pig-headed to understand that they make their own problems with their V-8 pickups and SUVs, their 300 HP roadburners and their 1 person commutes. The solution is simple: either pay to play or change the game. We ain't gonna have it both ways any more.

MK

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: W.R.Buchanan
Date: Wed, Oct 20, 2010 - 02:29 PM ET
Website Address:

We all know that race cars run on alcohol, and they make more power doing it, BUT did you know that those engines have 18-20:1 compression ratios? well they do, and that's the reason they make so much power. Another little tidbit in this discussion is that fuel to air mixtures in most gas engines are around 14.7:1, with alcohol it is 4:1 This is because alcohol has much fewer BTU's per gallon than gas, and way less than diesel.

Alcohol in gasoline works the same way as Octane boosters IE it slows down the burn rate. As a result you can run very high comp ratios and not have detonation problems. However since it slows down the burn rate it also slows down the power output, and unless you have a high comp ratio to push the burn rate back up, you can't extract as much power as gas and you will have to burn much more alcohol to do it at a 4:1 fuel to air mixture.

You don't have a high compression ratio in your engine. You might have a 11:1 ratio if you have a hotrod, but nothing close to diesel comp ratios. So the use of alcohol is strictly to slow down the burn rate and make the engine run cleaner, which it can't do at a low compression ratio on gas alone. The fuel doesn't fully burn as well as the polutants.

Another point is BTU's per pound or gallon. This is the amount of energy in the fuel Diesel is 18,000 BTU's/lb, gasoline is around 10,000BTU's/lb and I'm pretty sure Alcohol is around 4,000 BTU's/lb. This alone explains why FLEX FUEL cars get abismal mileage on Ethanol. OH, that also explains why diesels rule!

In Europe 60% of the new cars sold are diesels. Maybe someone can explain the political bullshit that is keeping diesels out of America. They always say smog, but that is bull. Mercedes and Cummins engines being produced today output less emmissions than is in the air they take in.

Ethanol is nothing more than political bullshit being stuffed down our throats again. It is there mainly to apease the farmers who couldn't get good money for thier corn. Once you place a high demand on the comodity the price goes up, and you insure that it stays up, by mandating it's use.

Guys, our political system is really fucked up right now, and it is going to take some very major changes to fix it. I am talking way beyond this up coming election. There needs to be new rules forced on congress because they will NEVER evoke them on themselves. We need a national referendum process in all 50 states so we can pass the laws that congress won't touch. You guys that live in states that don't have an 'initative process" like here in CA where there are proposals on the ballot to vote on brought about by voters, need to start squaking at your local reps to get it in place. This is the only way we will ever be able to make congress do what we want them to do!

I think we need to have an ATA registered singles event on the White House lawn, limited to 538 registered targets. First come first served. Bring #2 or larger shot.

Randy

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: abbielew
Date: Wed, Oct 20, 2010 - 02:36 PM ET
Website Address:

VOTE, VOTE AND VOTE THE BASTARDS OUT OF OFFICE.

VOTE THE TREE HUGING DFL DEMOCRATS OUT OF OFFICE AND MAYBE WE CAN SAVE THE USE..

BIRDDOG

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Unknown1
Date: Wed, Oct 20, 2010 - 03:44 PM ET
Website Address:

"Ethanol is nothing more than political bullshit being stuffed down our throats again. It is there mainly to apease the farmers who couldn't get good money for thier corn. Once you place a high demand on the comodity the price goes up, and you insure that it stays up, by mandating it's use."
It doesn't have much to do with appeasing farmers, not that it matters. But it was the farm lobby that saw an opportunity, muddied the issue and swayed the decision of choosing a green fuel for production by crying about the price of corn. When people started screaming out their SUV windows for energy independence the government just fired up the stills and cooked up some ethanol. The technology was available and it stretched the gas supply by 10% or so. They were hoping that people wouldn't realize that ethanol currently has a lot of drawbacks as a commercial fuel. Unfortunately, the cat got out of the bag. Now they have to find a REAL solution to producing ethanol without starving the over-fed couch potatoes who live on that high fructose syrup.

In Europe, they focus on bio-diesel fuels and they have developed the same cellulosic processes to produce diesel fuel out of discarded vegetation and farm waste that the US wants to use to produce ethanol. They develop fuels that give better mileage; we work hard at getting less.

MK

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Tron
Date: Wed, Oct 20, 2010 - 07:29 PM ET
Website Address:

A lot of smaller 4 stroke motors have a tough enough time running on the crap that we have to use now. This just isn't going to work from my experiences.

JMHO

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: lost & Dead
Date: Wed, Oct 20, 2010 - 11:30 PM ET
Website Address:

The us grows 40% of the worlds corn.Yes you cant eat oil so why not get a fair trade price for our corn. Opec doesnt control 40% of the worlds oil but they do control the market price for oil. In the ethanol process about 20% of the corn is lost in the process the remaining product is reffered to as DDG or dried distillers grain.Thats right you forgot that the corn is not totaly gone and can be used as animal feed or loaded in a container and shipped to china. The chinese have developed a taste for corn products also, and the worst part is they are taking your money to buy your corn.I would bet most people on this site enjoy hunting on some farmers property do you think they can keep it by having $2.00 corn prices and pay todays taxes.The point is that ethanol is only a supplemental fuel source and not the answer to forein oil the same goes for wind power. We seam to have no problem giving moneny to countries that will never repay us or become our allies why not support our own companies.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Big Heap
Date: Wed, Oct 20, 2010 - 11:45 PM ET
Website Address:

Energy company Pacific Ethanol Holding Co. revealed that it had filed a bankruptcy reorganization plan after being hit hard by fluctuating prices for the biofuel and its main source, corn.

The subsidiary of Sacramento-based Pacific Ethanol Inc. would restructure its $293.5 million of debt into a combination of equity and $115 million in debt. The company would relinquish ownership of its four plants to lenders led by European bank West LB AG while continuing to staff, manage and operate the factories.

The plan, filed in a bankruptcy court in Delaware on Friday, also allows for a $35-million credit line for plant operations that could help reopen the company’s facilities in Stockton and Madera. The plants, including others in Oregon and Idaho, entered Chapter 11 bankruptcy in May.

Creditors and the bankruptcy judge must first approve the reorganization proposal for the unit.

The parent Pacific Ethanol once was an industry golden child that boasted of an $84-million investment from Microsoft Corp. Chairman Bill Gates. Gates’ Cascade Investment firm has since sold its 21% stake in the company.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: halfmile
Date: Thu, Oct 21, 2010 - 09:07 AM ET
Website Address:

John, the top furel dragsters and funny cars use a blend of around 97% nitromethane, with the rest being toluene and alcoho

Buchanan, you have it pretty right. The main jets for a BSA Gold Star on fuel went to 420 from 230, and a 15 to 1 piston was necessary.

Not to mention a BIG feul tank.

HM

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: GunDr
Date: Thu, Oct 21, 2010 - 09:50 AM ET
Website Address:

Let us all not forget that the Al Gores in this country have a lot invested in the ethonal plants.

A year ago I got in a discussion with one of my farming uncles, who had told me he has invested into a near by ethynol plant. I told him I didn't much care to be paying him "out-of my-pocket" the $1.75 for every gallon of alchohol they produced. He told me it was not true...I proved him wrong. Now his "investment" is tanking.

http://www.oregonlive.com/environment/index.ssf/2010/01/rice_university_analysis_quest.html

>>In 2008, the U.S. government spent $4 billion on biofuels subsidies, replacing about 2 percent of the U.S. gasoline supply, according to the Baker Institute report, "Fundamentals of a Sustainable U.S. Biofuels Policy." The average cost to the taxpayer was about $82 a barrel, or $1.95 a gallon.<<

Doug

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: lost & Dead
Date: Thu, Oct 21, 2010 - 10:32 PM ET
Website Address:

This is from news wire from 1973 look how far we have come since then. We are still dependant on Arab oil and Obama is printing money like no other. We have complained about forein oil but have done nothing about it. "The Arab oil-producing countries decided to cut down their production so long as Israel remained in occupation of Arab lands, and Saudi Arabia imposed a total embargo on exports to the USA and The Netherlands, which was regarded as the most favorable to Israel of western European countries and was also a center of the free market in oil.

Apr. 15 1971 The us pulled out of the Bretton Woods Accord taking the US dollar off the Gold Exchange Standard (whereby only the value of the US dollar had been pegged to the price of gold and all other currencies were pegged to the US dollar), allowing the dollar to "float". Shortly thereafter, Britain followed, floating the pound sterling. The industrialized nations followed suit with their respective currencies. In anticipation of the fluctuation of currencies as they stabilized against each other, the industrialized nations also increased their reserves (printing money) in amounts far greater than ever before. The result was a depreciation of the value of the US dollar, as well as the other currencies of the world. Because oil was priced in dollars, this meant that oil producers were receiving less real income for the same price. The OPEC cartel issued a joint communique stating that forthwith they would price a barrel of oil against gold

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: schwabby
Date: Fri, Oct 22, 2010 - 01:24 AM ET
Website Address:

Did anyone even read the link? You guys either have additional information or you misinterpreted the article. Allowing to be sold does not equal mandated. Used ethanol 20 years ago in Illinois and still do occasionally. It is inefficient in a number of ways with a host of negatives, but MANDATE is not currently one of them.

Steve Schwab

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Unknown1
Date: Fri, Oct 22, 2010 - 07:31 AM ET
Website Address:

Yes... poor reading comprehension was pointed out early in the thread.

MK

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: hunter44
Date: Fri, Oct 22, 2010 - 07:55 AM ET
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When did the big push for ethanol start in this country?

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Unknown1
Date: Fri, Oct 22, 2010 - 08:08 AM ET
Website Address:

Back in '92, Congress passed the Clean Air Act that required the use of "reformulated" gas in the summer smog season. Refiners began putting the chemical MTBE ozygenator in the gas.

In '95, Congress required the use reformulated fuel year round in cities with high smog levels.

In '99 the use of MTBE was banned because it was discovered to be a carcinogen that mixes easily with water.

In 2003 California mandated using ethanol in place of MTBE as an oxygenator in gas because of concern over ground water pollution.

The rest is history.

It might be interesting to note that Henry Ford's Model A engines were designed to run on gas, ethanol or a mix of both. The stuff has a long history world-wide as a motor fuel.

MK

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: kenf
Date: Fri, Oct 22, 2010 - 12:12 PM ET
Website Address:

Our great fed at work for us- increase the amount of Ethanol permitted in fuel to further drive down fuel economy and drive up pollution all the while pushing auto manufacturers to increase the mpg on upcoming models.

Bear in mind that the issue being missed here is that the Federal and State governments that tax fuel per gallon lose fuel tax money with more efficient vehicles on the road- no wonder EPA is allowing E15 fuel.

What a joke.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: JTEA
Date: Fri, Oct 22, 2010 - 12:32 PM ET
Website Address:

In Eastern PA there's only one station I know of which sells non-Ethanol gas. It's in Strausstown, PA across the road from the Pat Garrett theater. About 15 miles west of Cabelas right off Route 22(?).

We now have corn planted in fields wall to wall, used to rotate with soybeans. Plus fields near us which haven't been turned in decades now have grown corn this year.

JT

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Unknown1
Date: Fri, Oct 22, 2010 - 04:29 PM ET
Website Address:

"In Eastern PA there's only one station I know of which sells non-Ethanol gas...."
There are quite a few more than just that 1, and in a number of States they stop and start with the seasons: Ethanol-Free Gas.Org: Pennsylvania

MK

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Unknown1
Date: Fri, Oct 22, 2010 - 06:29 PM ET
Website Address:

"Bear in mind that the issue being missed here is that the Federal and State governments that tax fuel per gallon lose fuel tax money with more efficient vehicles on the road- no wonder EPA is allowing E15 fuel."
So lemme see if I understand... by your logic we are better off if we all drive guzzlers and buy more oil from off-shore suppliers because the government will collect more tax revenue to repair the roads??

What the heck do you think got us into the mess we're in now??

MK

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: lost & Dead
Date: Fri, Oct 22, 2010 - 09:53 PM ET
Website Address:

Everyone complains that the goverment subsidizes the farmer with programs Like crp programs.Now the price goes up do to demand we want them to keep the price low so we dont have pay more.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: kenf
Date: Sat, Oct 23, 2010 - 09:58 AM ET
Website Address:

I think you missed my point, you can't mandate cars that get 40 mpg or whatever to reduce fuel consumption and pollution, and then allow up to 15% ethanol to be sold that 1) gets worse fuel economy than E10 or straight gasoline and 2) requires more than a gallon of oil to produce a gallon of ethanol.

All the while, the DOT can't be expected to maintain roads and bridges by keeping on the same plan to collect tax on every gallon sold, if fuel economy is increased, which is the reason for the increase in ethanol content. It looks as if the proponents of the old system got their way, not those proposing to tax by the mile- although the way we are headed, I would not be surprised to have it taxed both ways.

The real answer here is to begin switching over to LNG.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: psfive
Date: Sat, Oct 23, 2010 - 11:41 AM ET
Website Address:

I do not care who you are or what you drive. Pick one fill your tank and check your mileage. Then pick the other fill your tank and check your mileage. I'd guess you will get better mileage with plain old unleaded.

Plus the price difference will not make up for the loss in mileage for the ethanol product.

Oh yes one more added bonus if you live in a climate where it gets cold outside in the winter. Your engine now makes less heat to keep it running efficiently and to keep the passenger cabin warm. More alcohol equals less heat made by combustion.

One more thing the amount of water needed to make this stuff is incredible.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Unknown1
Date: Sat, Oct 23, 2010 - 02:39 PM ET
Website Address:

Natural gas has promise and advantages but it also has one of the same disadvantages as ethanol: fuel mileage. Honda sells a Civic that runs on CNG (compressed natural gas). The fuel tank has been enlarged so much that there is only 6 ft³ of space left for luggage (that's a box 1 foot deep, 2 feet wide and 3 feet long) Even with the major increase in tank size, the car gets only about 220 miles on a fill-up compared to the 400+ miles it gets from the standard tank on gas.

Lot's of work to do on this project!

MK

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: slotracer577
Date: Sat, Oct 23, 2010 - 06:34 PM ET
Website Address:

Glad I dont own any cars that burn gas. Used to hate the milage drop every winter when the mandated ethanol. Now everything I own is diesel.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: dustmaker
Date: Sat, Oct 23, 2010 - 09:06 PM ET
Website Address:

I didn't write this but I am posting it here in the hope that it will help to educate the people who have been reading and listening to the misinformation that is being fed to us.

Why big oil is afraid of ethanol

It appears that we are in for a good scrap with our buddies big oil. This information is being sent to you to clear up misinformation being spread by big oil and media like CNBC.

THE BLOOD IN OUR GAS TANKS

I have calculated that there is nearly a quarter of a drop of blood shed for each tank full of gas; I think of that each time I go to the pump. There is however, a solution that not only eliminates the need for us, the US, to have to defend the Middle East oil patch, but would boost our GDP by 20% and reduce our balance of payments by 15%. This can be done with existing technology utilizing the resources we already have. Brazil has successfully been using this solution for four decades it is the key to their economic well being. The following is an explanation how this plan would work for us and the benefits derived.

Ethanol the 81% Solution

“The finished liquid fuel energy yield for fossil fuels dedicated to the production of Ethanol is 1—1.34, but only .74 for gasoline. In other words the energy yield of Ethanol is (1.34/.74) or 81% greater than the comparable yield for gasoline.”--Minnesota department of agriculture.

There are at least 5 credible studies on ethanol’s Net Energy Value (NEV), of which Pimentel’s, the lone critic from Cornell, is the only one which shows a negative NEV for ethanol. Peer review of his study found that his data were not accurate for both ethanol conversion and crop yields. If you use his same study, and update the correct data, a positive NEV is revealed. Please read the study yourself and see the errors.

Cleaner Greener Air

The Clean Air Act amendments of 1990 and the Reformulated Gasoline (RFG) gasoline standards both include fuel oxygenates as a requirement for cities violating carbon monoxide or ozone air-quality standards. The EPA estimates that transportation accounts for 66-80% of carbon monoxide (CO) emissions in our nation’s cities. A 1998 report by the American lung association of metropolitan Chicago states: “Oxygenates like Ethanol help fuels burn more completely.

The Uses of Corn Controversy

Approximately 50% of yellow corn produced in the U.S. is used for animal feed, 19% is exported, 18% used in Ethanol production, 13% used for human consumption in 2006.

The Animal Feed Equation

The processing of Ethanol leaves about 30% of the unused part of the corn kernel as a residue product referred to as Distillers Grains or DDGs (Dried Distillers Grains). These DDGs are an excellent animal feed because the part of the corn kernel valuable as animal feed is not destroyed by the distillation process; instead the feed value is concentrated (3 to 1) into a highly palatable animal feed. Feed lots, dairies, poultry, fish and pork farms readily utilize DDGs. Nothing is wasted in the Ethanol producing process and the impact on the supply of corn for animal feed supply is negligible.

Save the Soil

Corn is one of the most environmentally friendly crops grown because it has strong roots and holds the soil against erosion. When corn is harvested only the ear is plucked from the seven foot tall stalk; this leaves an enormous amount of organic material left behind, called stover. This stover provides a ground cover which prevents wind and water erosion over the winter, catches snow to help provide moisture for the next year’s crop and becomes a substantial mulch when worked into the soil for the next crop year. This mulch holds water and prevents erosion in the spring and early summer while the young corn plants are growing; few other crops can claim to be such good shepherds of the soil. Also new crop technology is now producing higher yields using fewer inputs like fertilizer and other chemicals.

Food and Shelter for Wildlife

The Corn Belt is in the migratory bird flyway and the rural area of America is home to dozens of wildlife species. Corn stover is loaded with corn ears and kernels that fall to the ground before or during harvest which provides food and shelter for all forms of wildlife. Migrating ducks and geese in spring and fall often completely blanket these corn residue fields appearing as a sea of white or gray. Many of the local species of birds and animals including pheasants, grouse, partridge and deer to name a few live off these fields throughout much of the year.

Potential growth

Oil consumption in the USA is approximately 20 billion barrels a day or an unfathomable 7 trillion barrels a year of which half is imported at a cost of a staggering $255 billion and increasing each day with the price of crude oil.

We now produce 12 billion bushels of corn—tripling our production to 40 billion would produce enough fuel to nearly eliminate the need for Middle Eastern oil and essentially make us energy independent. There would still be adequate resources to provide for food and feed, but as I intend to show our crop land is most valuable for growing energy. Should we need to import some cotton from India, where the farmers are committing suicide because of low cotton prices, we can afford it, using the money we save on oil imports. Growing our energy would create a new dynamic in the world commodity markets and would effectively eliminate the problem of low commodity prices so worrisome to the WTO because of present subsidy payments to our farmers for growing unprofitable products that are dumped on the open market. Producing our own fuel could eliminate the need to subsidize our farmers.

The US has 300 million acres of farm land presently and more then half that amount is idled by farm programs or voluntarily because of past farm surpluses and poor commodity prices. These lands could be successfully farmed if the economics were right. Presently 70 million acres produces ~12 billion bushels of corn. Approximately 200 million acres would be required to produce 40 billion bushels of corn depending on how much yields are improved with new seed corn varieties and the ability to convert rice land, already irrigated, into corn production. The amount of water used to irrigate an acre of rice, which is one of the most subsidized crops, could irrigate several acres of corn with the same amount of water.

The Boost to our GDP

Producing 40 billion bushels even at $2 per bushel is $80 billion of product grown in this country. Refining these 40 billion bushels into 120 billion gallons of Ethanol valued at $2 per gallon creates an additional $240 billion in revenue. This is $240 billion total new revenue in the US economy. The combined multiplier for these two processes, farming and manufacturing would be at a minimum a factor of 10. This would create $3.2 trillion of GDP or a factor increase of ~20% over the 2005 GDP. The value of each bushel of corn produced is then worth ~$80 to our economy.

Producing 40 billion bushels of corn would allow us to save the $255 billion we spend each year importing oil. Quick calculation, if it requires 40 billion bushels of corn to replace $255 billion of imported oil the value of each bushel of corn is $6 per bushel. Added to the $80 per bushel mentioned above the value of a bushel of corn is $86, interestingly nearly the same price as a barrel of crude oil today.

The annual production of grain on this scale would create an economic boom never realized in this country and this money and these jobs would stay at home; they can’t be shipped to India or china. It will require some system of price stabilization for three products, oil, corn and Ethanol to allow the investments to be made in each to avoid losses and the ability of one sector to control the market to the detriment of the others.

Are We as Smart as Brazil

I served as a governor appointed commissioner on the North Dakota State “Business Industrial Development department” in the 1970’s. The energy shortage then sent us scurrying to find new energy sources ranging from Ethanol to coal gasification. I traveled to Brazil to investigate their solution—Ethanol from sugar cane. The financial people I talked to there said this was an imperative move for them because of their weak economy, rampant inflation and a negative trade balance. The importing of expensive oil was a major factor in their trade deficit. Their ingenious solution was to grow their own fuel—Ethanol. The cars, at least the taxis I rode in, were mainly Volkswagen bugs that ran on pure alcohol. The only petroleum products used were for trucks and industrial equipment.

This was their way of managing their balance of payments, interestingly the same situation we are in today. They innovated, proved a technology and survived four decades ago about the same time we put a man on the moon I am sure we can make Ethanol work for us like they did.

The Many Choices—No Single Answer

It is shocking that so many articles cite one source containing flawed data as their sole determination that ethanol should not be supported. I challenge each reader to re-examine their judgment considering the information they used to reach their conclusion. Apparently there is a well funded and organized effort by the oil lobby (that stands to lose sales of their product if alternative fuels are accepted) to regurgitate faulty findings and slander a progressive, grass roots effort. The American people are at the brink of an energy crisis, we need now more than ever before a thoughtful, diligent media to allow voters to know the truth and voice their support for ethanol to their politicians.

The energy problem faced by the world will require many different approaches, solar, wind and coal in addition to new efforts to conserve. But Ethanol is the only option for auto fuel here today and provides us with a way to continue the life style we presently enjoy in the use of private transportation. It allows us the option to drive vehicles that a family can fit into and can take trips in. It will economically provide us with an option to live in the suburbs to avoid living stacked fifty stories high in congested cities. All this while boosting our economy; what more do we want from a bushel of corn?

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: psfive
Date: Sat, Oct 23, 2010 - 10:10 PM ET
Website Address:

dustmaker

Have you ever taken the time to compare the fuel mileage (mpg) between the ethanol fuel 10% alcohol and 90% unleaded gasoline and straight unleaded gasoline?

Most internal combustion engines are designed to operate efficiently on 87 octane or pure unleaded gasoline. The addition of the 10% alcohol brings the octane in most situations to 89 octane. This makes the fuel better for higher performance (also a cause of poor mpg). It does very little for todays engines except in most cases reduce fuel mileage.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: dustmaker
Date: Sat, Oct 23, 2010 - 10:31 PM ET
Website Address:

In my 2001 Bonneville I get 30.5 mpg when I use E30 (that's 30% ethanol). The mileage doesn't change when I use E10 or pure gasoline.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Unknown1
Date: Sat, Oct 23, 2010 - 10:33 PM ET
Website Address:

"The addition of the 10% alcohol brings the octane in most situations to 89 octane. This makes the fuel better for higher performance (also a cause of poor mpg)."
Nope, faulty logic.

It's NOT a better fuel for high performance in existing gasoline engines. Ethanol does raise the octane level of the gas it's put into but it also lowers the energy content of any given quantity of it. So even though the resulting mix is harder to ignite (higher octane burns more slowly), it doesn't produce as much energy as the same amount of gasoline once it's ignited in most engines. So it takes more of it to move a given weight (the vehicle) the same distance at the same speed as less gasoline (poorer fuel mileage).

MK

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: ou.3200
Date: Sat, Oct 23, 2010 - 11:00 PM ET
Website Address:

Nonsense. Whoever wrote that uncredited piece makes a lot of statements with little to back them up. $86 per bushel of corn!!!!!!!! give me a break. Creative accounting 101! In the next to the last paragraph they let slip, "progressive", a code word used by the leftists and greenies to make their agenda more palatable.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Shark
Date: Sat, Oct 23, 2010 - 11:26 PM ET
Website Address:

The reality of ethanol is that if Federal subsidies ended today ethanol production would end tommorow.... We need to continue to develop alternative energies but at this time ethanol is not the answer it is at best a 1:1 energy source and at the very probable worst a net negative energy source only coming into the positive when the sun energy to grow the corn is factored in. We have many billions of barrels of oil in this country to utilize for decades to come such as the bakken formation in ND, SD, and eastern MT with an eur (estimated ultimate recovery) of 24 billion barrels. Also, we have the Niobara formation in eastern WY and northern CO that is just now coming into play. And many other sources of crude. Bottom line is drive on!

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Unknown1
Date: Sun, Oct 24, 2010 - 08:18 AM ET
Website Address:

Shark, do you REALLY want to hitch your wagon to reserves like Baaken? As recently as last year

  • no one was really sure what the structure of the formation really looked like
  • no one really knew where the trapped oil would be easy to get and where hard
  • most engineers did agree that recovery would vary according to formation but would stay in the single-digit percentages
  • the technology being used now (frakking) is the same technology polluting the aquifers and the ground water in the Marcellus NG formations in Pennsylvania and NY; the same result is expected in the Baaken
  • recovery cost projections indicate the resulting fuels could cost in the double digits per gallon

There's a major difference between an "oil reserve" and a "practically exploitable oil reserve".

MK

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: psfive
Date: Sun, Oct 24, 2010 - 10:50 PM ET
Website Address:

Unknown1 You are correct.

At 10% no it is not a high preformance fuel, my mistake. However you won't find much gasoline in the tanks of top fuel cars.

I needed to prof read my post prior to pushing the submit button.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Chugiakshooter
Date: Mon, Oct 25, 2010 - 12:16 AM ET
Website Address:

Makes for awesome race fuel,Top Alochol Dragsters and Funny cars run 100 percent so do Outlaw Sprint Cars they don't have any problem.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Unknown1
Date: Mon, Oct 25, 2010 - 10:17 AM ET
Website Address:

They also don't run the stuff in street engines designed to run on gasoline either.

Top alcohol is a stepping-stone class to the fuel classes. One reason they run alcohol as a fuel is that alcohol fires can be doused with water instead of with specialty suppressants. Alcohol's way cheaper than nitromethane or specialty racing gas and slows the cars down to more sane speed...still fast, but more sane.

MK

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Hydrasports
Date: Mon, Oct 25, 2010 - 08:34 PM ET
Website Address:

"Ethanol does raise the octane level of the gas it's put into but it also lowers the energy content of any given quantity of it."

It does temporarily raise the octane level, however, in a very short time that rating drops from 12 - 18%. Additionally, the poster is correct, it does produce less energy, and lower MPG. All of this is fine if you drive a '07 or newer vehicle desigend for this fuel. However, when it comes to outboards, over 90% of the motors currently in use were built before '07 and CANNOT run on 10% let alone 15% ethanol. Just curious, will our president "of change" provide stimulus money for those of use with older vehicles and outboards.. Seems only fair.. Oh, forgot we work .. And we are just supposed to pay for the stimulus programs, not benefit from them..

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: birdtracker
Date: Mon, Oct 25, 2010 - 08:46 PM ET
Website Address:

Quote: In my 2001 Bonneville I get 30.5 mpg when I use E30 (that's 30% ethanol). The mileage doesn't change when I use E10 or pure gasoline.

Your 2001 fuel system was not designed for 30% and the risk of a fuel leak and the odds of a fire are greatly increased. Good luck. Birdtracker

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Hydrasports
Date: Mon, Oct 25, 2010 - 08:52 PM ET
Website Address:

Earlier a poster stated that 15% can now be sold, it is not mandated, true. However, here in Louisiana, you know the State that produces 25% of your petroleum products, regular unleaded gas is almost impossible to find. In a three parish (county) area, population of over 300K, there are only 3 stations that sell regular unleaded gas. Why? Good question, the government subsidizes the producers at the rate of $.04 per gallon to sell 10% ethanol..(fact). Therefore, the producers make more money, (not the service stations who have no choice in the matter), and owners of older vehicles and outboards are suffering with high repair cost. I have no problem with the selling of ethanol, but, give us a choice at the pump; I will pay the $04-$.06 per gallon to save my engine.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Jon Reitz
Date: Mon, Oct 25, 2010 - 08:56 PM ET
Website Address:

I drive a lot and have always watched fuel mileage closely. Since this E-BS gasoline hit the market I've noticed significant declines in fuel economy.

I also own two chain saws that I basically only use this time of year. This year I noticed that both of them ran poorly and was finally able to diagnose and trace the problem to fuel. Guess what I discovered? You got it. Mixing gasoline for 2-cycle engines is now trickier than it used to be. The mix ratios are now different and critical, whereas in the past they were not. Wait 'til next spring when you dig out your 2-cycle string trimmer. This stuff is real garbage.

Vote responsibly.

Jon Reitz

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Unknown1
Date: Mon, Oct 25, 2010 - 09:36 PM ET
Website Address:

"...Guess what I discovered? You got it. Mixing gasoline for 2-cycle engines is now trickier than it used to be. The mix ratios are now different and critical, whereas in the past they were not."
You can still mix 2-stroke gas at 40 or 50:l. The problem now is that the alcohol washes the oil off of the cylinder walls and shortens piston, ring and bearing life.

If you buy any new Echo 2-stroke power tool they will recommend that you mix THEIR oil with 93 octane unleaded gas. I thought that mixing a combustion-slowing oil with a slower burning gasoline was counter intuitive but the equipment runs darn good on the stuff.

MK

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: oldgahchamp
Date: Mon, Oct 25, 2010 - 11:42 PM ET
Website Address:

Sta-bil makes an additive called Marine Formula Ethanol Treatment. I bought it at a NAPA Auto Parts Store for $9.99 + tax for 8oz. It treats 80 gallons. This will add over 13 cents per gallon to the cost of gasoline. What A Deal!! Larry Evans

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Unknown1
Date: Tue, Oct 26, 2010 - 07:46 AM ET
Website Address:

"This will add over 13 cents per gallon to the cost of gasoline. What A Deal!!"
It IS a deal if the ethanol in your seasonal or 2-cycle engines (what the Ethanol Fuel Treatment is made for) mixes with moisture and turns to jelly during storage. Try storing these engines for the winter on a fill of high-test gas instead.

MK

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Jon Reitz
Date: Tue, Oct 26, 2010 - 08:13 AM ET
Website Address:

MK,

I had to get on the upper end of 50:1 to make the saws run halfway decently. At 40:1, using that BS gasoline, they both ran poorly. I think next year it will be 93 octane, assuming we can still buy it. As for storing 2-cycle engines, instead of using STA-BIL this winter, I'm going to drain the fuel completely. I'd hate to try to make a race motor run on this crap.

Jon Reitz

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Pat Ireland
Date: Tue, Oct 26, 2010 - 08:37 AM ET
Website Address:

Is it true that Florida is considering adding 15% Ethanol to all orange juice exported from the state? Not far from my home there is a backwood Church that will not allow anyone in of Sunday who drank alcohol on Saturday night. Will the cars with Ethanol added to the gasoline be able to park in the Church lot?

Pat Ireland

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Unknown1
Date: Tue, Oct 26, 2010 - 09:47 AM ET
Website Address:

<"I had to get on the upper end of 50:1 to make the saws run halfway decently."
The oil in the fuel doesn't burn but it does displace gasoline that does burn. I found that I could improve the running of most of my 2-cycle engines by increasing the area (not the diameter) of the engine's main jet by at least 5% but less than 10% to compensate for the alcohol in the fuel. Some engines required more change than others and some required a bit of fiddle with the idle jets as well. My carbureted 4-cycle motorcycle required changes to both main and idle jets to improve the running; the idle jets mattered more.

MK

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: likes-to-shoot
Date: Tue, Oct 26, 2010 - 11:00 AM ET
Website Address:

I must have the exceptions when it comes to small engines. My trimmer, lawn mower, snowblower, weedeater, chainsaw, edger, etc.etc have all run great with 10% ethanol blend gas and 2 cycle oil mix. Oh well, I guess some of us are lucker than others.

Bill

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: slic lee
Date: Tue, Oct 26, 2010 - 11:30 AM ET
Website Address:

What a load of misinformation you all give. Do you all make it up or copy what someone else wrote elsewhere. We are the only country in the world that uses corn to produce ethanol, most others use cane stalks or cellulose from the cheapest byproducts. To grow corn, a farmer must take care of the crop using pesticides, fertilizers and who knows what else. How much money and labor does that cost? Sugar cane requires nothing. No care, nothing, no enemies, no fertilizers, no pesticides it just grows and does nothing harmful to the soil, can be replanted year after year such as south american countries have proven. Why are we not following what other countries have proven works.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Unknown1
Date: Tue, Oct 26, 2010 - 12:08 PM ET
Website Address:

"...Why are we not following what other countries have proven works."
The farm and corn lobbies come immediately to mind. Americans have way too much ego to admit that anyone else knows more about something than we do, and too often it turns around and bites them in the arse.

MK

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: dustmaker
Date: Tue, Oct 26, 2010 - 06:21 PM ET
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Birdtracker

Here in MN we've been using ethanol since the mid 1990's. Lots of people mix E85 and E10. I have never heard of anyone having a fire or a fuel leak.

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: birdtracker
Date: Wed, Oct 27, 2010 - 07:54 PM ET
Website Address:

Dustmaker: another side affect is it destroys cataletic converters. Thats why the goverment says E-15 only for 2007 and newer. And another problem is the old cars that are carburated. It eats up plastic. I have seen Holley carbs with clear site plugs that had turned to mush and leaking. If it was safe and great the goverment would have us all at E-50. But they can't. Birdtracker

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Git-ER-Done
Date: Wed, Oct 27, 2010 - 10:21 PM ET
Website Address:

I can't remember when GMC started to build their flex fuel system cars, but remember who owns it now. OBAMA and you will buy his cars or else

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Subject: OT New Law 15% (E-15) Ethanol Fuel Mandatory
From: Unknown1
Date: Wed, Oct 27, 2010 - 11:11 PM ET
Website Address:

"I can't remember when GMC started to build their flex fuel system cars, but remember who owns it now. OBAMA and you will buy his cars or else."
Where in the heck did you come up with that science-fiction tidbit? Besides, it's a worry for only a couple more years.

MK

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