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smoking357 13-Jul-10 - 05:43 PM ET
Barry C. Roach 13-Jul-10 - 05:45 PM ET
BigM-Perazzi 13-Jul-10 - 06:03 PM ET
smoking357 13-Jul-10 - 06:09 PM ET
rooferbob 13-Jul-10 - 06:11 PM ET
BigM-Perazzi 13-Jul-10 - 06:21 PM ET
smoking357 13-Jul-10 - 06:38 PM ET
Setterman 13-Jul-10 - 06:50 PM ET
grnberetcj 13-Jul-10 - 07:03 PM ET
ivanhoe 13-Jul-10 - 07:05 PM ET
dhip 13-Jul-10 - 08:00 PM ET
BigM-Perazzi 13-Jul-10 - 08:01 PM ET
smsnyder 13-Jul-10 - 08:04 PM ET
BigM-Perazzi 13-Jul-10 - 08:30 PM ET
bridgetoofar 13-Jul-10 - 09:06 PM ET
smoking357 13-Jul-10 - 09:08 PM ET
Setterman 13-Jul-10 - 09:15 PM ET
recurvyarcher 13-Jul-10 - 09:54 PM ET
wayneo 13-Jul-10 - 10:05 PM ET
smoking357 13-Jul-10 - 10:19 PM ET
Hellcat 13-Jul-10 - 10:24 PM ET
ivanhoe 13-Jul-10 - 10:30 PM ET
goatskin 13-Jul-10 - 10:38 PM ET
trapwife 14-Jul-10 - 12:03 AM ET
goatskin 14-Jul-10 - 12:13 AM ET
smoking357 14-Jul-10 - 12:32 AM ET
goatskin 14-Jul-10 - 01:21 AM ET
Hap MecTweaks 14-Jul-10 - 02:35 AM ET
BIGDON 14-Jul-10 - 06:08 AM ET
copper 14-Jul-10 - 06:38 AM ET
wayneo 14-Jul-10 - 06:50 AM ET
dhip 14-Jul-10 - 06:52 AM ET
Setterman 14-Jul-10 - 07:01 AM ET
ivanhoe 14-Jul-10 - 07:22 AM ET
loop02 14-Jul-10 - 07:47 AM ET
smoking357 14-Jul-10 - 08:16 AM ET
Recoil Sissy 14-Jul-10 - 08:26 AM ET
smoking357 14-Jul-10 - 08:29 AM ET
Bruce Specht 14-Jul-10 - 08:38 AM ET
1oldtimer 14-Jul-10 - 09:22 AM ET
BIGDON 14-Jul-10 - 09:27 AM ET
ivanhoe 14-Jul-10 - 09:29 AM ET
BigM-Perazzi 14-Jul-10 - 09:29 AM ET
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smoking357 14-Jul-10 - 11:10 AM ET
Fr. Bru 14-Jul-10 - 11:37 AM ET
ivanhoe 14-Jul-10 - 11:38 AM ET
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ivanhoe 14-Jul-10 - 01:04 PM ET
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Hap MecTweaks 14-Jul-10 - 03:32 PM ET
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The Literalist 15-Jul-10 - 07:47 AM ET
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smoking357 15-Jul-10 - 09:28 AM ET
ivanhoe 15-Jul-10 - 09:28 AM ET
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oleolliedawg 15-Jul-10 - 09:33 AM ET
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Shootrman 15-Jul-10 - 09:45 AM ET
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ivanhoe 15-Jul-10 - 09:57 AM ET
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Setterman 15-Jul-10 - 10:27 AM ET
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ivanhoe 15-Jul-10 - 12:12 PM ET
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dhip 15-Jul-10 - 03:27 PM ET
ivanhoe 15-Jul-10 - 03:32 PM ET
spitter 15-Jul-10 - 04:18 PM ET
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smoking357 15-Jul-10 - 04:48 PM ET
ivanhoe 15-Jul-10 - 05:50 PM ET
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smoking357 15-Jul-10 - 09:26 PM ET
BigM-Perazzi 15-Jul-10 - 09:29 PM ET
smoking357 15-Jul-10 - 09:47 PM ET
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Joe Smoke 15-Jul-10 - 10:45 PM ET
smoking357 15-Jul-10 - 11:19 PM ET
matttrapn 15-Jul-10 - 11:29 PM ET
trapshooteraa27aa 16-Jul-10 - 01:04 AM ET
BIGDON 16-Jul-10 - 06:32 AM ET
dhip 16-Jul-10 - 07:04 AM ET
smoking357 16-Jul-10 - 08:39 AM ET
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smoking357 16-Jul-10 - 03:38 PM ET
ivanhoe 16-Jul-10 - 06:36 PM ET
grnberetcj 16-Jul-10 - 06:46 PM ET
smoking357 17-Jul-10 - 11:56 PM ET


Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 - 05:43 PM ET
Website Address:

I see Trapshooting as governed by the ATA, where 'A' = "Amateur." Is there any professional Trapshooting, and if one goes pro, how does the ATA know to yank his membership?

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: Barry C. Roach
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 - 05:45 PM ET
Website Address:

Nice cast.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: BigM-Perazzi
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 - 06:03 PM ET
Website Address:

crappy cast, reel fouled, it's an old hook, broken and bent. 2# test wouldn't

hold the lunkers found around here anyway....

But, to answer the question, no ATA trapshooters derive there annual income

strictly from their competitive winnings......

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 - 06:09 PM ET
Website Address:

WTF is "cast?" I wasn't talking about stocks. It doesn't matter what percentage of income comes from Trap to be an amateur. It matters whether one is paid.

Pro, as opposed to amateur. If everyone is an amateur, then just call the association the "American Trapshooting Association" and drop the "Amateur" business.

From the USGA site:

"The USGA writes and maintains the Rules of Amateur Status along with the R&A Rules Limited. An "amateur golfer" is one who plays the game as a non-remunerative and non-profit-making sport and who does not receive remuneration for teaching golf or for other activities because of golf skill or reputation, except as provided in the Rules."

One can't be an amateur and join the PGA.

From the USGA Rules:

1-1. General

An amateur golfer must play the game and conduct himself in accordance with the Rules. 1-2. Amateur Status

Amateur Status is a universal condition of eligibility for playing in golf competitions as an amateur golfer. A person who acts contrary to the Rules may forfeit his status as an amateur golfer and as a result will be ineligible to play in amateur competitions.

1-3. Purpose and Spirit of the Rules

The purpose and spirit of the Rules is to maintain the distinction between amateur golf and professional golf and to keep the amateur game as free as possible from the abuses that may follow from uncontrolled sponsorship and financial incentive. It is considered necessary to safeguard amateur golf, which is largely self-regulating with regard to the Rules of play and handicapping, so that it can be fully enjoyed by all amateur golfers. 1-4. Doubt as to Rules

A person who wishes to be an amateur golfer and who is in doubt as to whether taking a proposed course of action is permitted under the Rules should consult the USGA.

An organizer or sponsor of an amateur golf competition or a competition involving amateur golfers who is in doubt as to whether a proposal is in accordance with the Rules should consult the USGA.

2-1. General

Except as provided in the Rules, an amateur golfer must not take any action for the purpose of becoming a professional golfer and must not identify himself as a professional golfer.

Note 1: Actions by an amateur golfer for the purpose of becoming a professional golfer include, but are not limited to:

(a) accepting the position of a professional golfer;

(b) receiving services or payment, directly or indirectly, from a professional agent;

(c) entering into a written or oral agreement, directly or indirectly, with a professional agent or sponsor; and

(d) agreeing to accept payment or compensation, directly or indirectly, for allowing his name or likeness as a player of golf skill or reputation to be used for any commercial purpose.

Note 2: An amateur golfer may inquire as to his likely prospects as a professional golfer, including applying unsuccessfully for the position of a professional golfer, and he may work in a professional's shop and receive payment or compensation, provided he does not infringe the Rules in any other way.

2-2. Membership in Professional Golfers' Organizations

a. Professional Golfers' Association

An amateur golfer must not hold or retain membership in any Professional Golfers' Association.

b. Professional Tours

An amateur golfer must not hold or retain membership in a Professional Tour limited exclusively to professional golfers.

Note: If an amateur golfer must compete in one or more qualifying competitions in order to be eligible for membership in a Professional Tour, he may enter and play in such qualifying competitions without forfeiting his Amateur Status, provided that, in advance of play and in writing, he waives his right to any prize money in the competition.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: rooferbob
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 - 06:11 PM ET
Website Address:

Oh way to guys now you've made it mad!

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: BigM-Perazzi
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 - 06:21 PM ET
Website Address:

He thought he was posting on a golf forum!! lol

"amateurism by the 1990s was a concept of diminished importance and one more of technical than moral distinction. " J. Lucas, The Modern Olympic Games (1980).

The only concern is if you plan on shooting Olympic competition. Then you must conform to their interpretation of the rules. Then it probably falls under this.

"The Amateur Sports Act of 1978 (36 U.S.C.A. § 391) created the Athletic Congress, a national governing body for amateur athletes, which administers a trust fund that allows amateur athletes to receive funds and sponsorship payments without losing their amateur status"

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 - 06:38 PM ET
Website Address:

Hey, Perazzi, it's polite to note whether what you're about to say had been previously addressed. You're ignoring material that already responds to what you're writing.

Of course, if you're merely trying to press a failing argument with persistence, then I understand the dishonest tactic.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: Setterman
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 - 06:50 PM ET
Website Address:

Leo won $30,000 at Ohio in one week last year. Add up his yearly winnings and it's much more than most working stiffs will make. Of course you have to deduct his expenses! Trailer, entry fees, fuel, and dependants.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: grnberetcj
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 - 07:03 PM ET
Website Address:

Duh........!!!

Curt

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: ivanhoe
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 - 07:05 PM ET
Website Address:

Something not being taken into consideration here,

"Add up his yearly winnings and it's much more than most working stiffs will make."

Leo isn't exactly just some working stiff if you think so what does that make you in the trap scheme of things?????

I haven't seen anything in the amateur rule that are being thrown around here that tells us what the criteria is to be a Pro is it your average or handicap or what.

In other sports it is the dues or your average or how many points you have accumulated so in golf just what makes you qualified to be an amateur as a opposed to being a Pro??????

Bob Lawless

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: dhip
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 - 08:00 PM ET
Website Address:

Bass Fisherman og on Tour in a PRO circuit. Trap doesn't have a Pro circuit that I know of. Also,via other posts,that would be the easiest way to create a Pro Class. Have a Pro circuit they'd have to participate in,eliminates all the chatter about yardage as far as I'm concerned.Heck,I shoot for enjoyment anyway,bring on the yardage,still recoils they same.

Doug H.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: BigM-Perazzi
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 - 08:01 PM ET
Website Address:

Ahh, Gee, Toker, I was just kidding you. Why you would even consider the USGA and the ATA to have anything in common is beyond me.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smsnyder
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 - 08:04 PM ET
Website Address:

Leo is a pro shooter. He wins money,teach the sport and gets indorsments. He also is considered a pro by the IRS. Don.t you believe that he deducts his expenses on his taxes?

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: BigM-Perazzi
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 - 08:30 PM ET
Website Address:

So, snyder, that's the definition of a professional by the IRS?..

Please link me to that page, I need to see if I qualify....

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: bridgetoofar
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 - 09:06 PM ET
Website Address:

Heavier leaders needed.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 - 09:08 PM ET
Website Address:

Here's the problem with carelessly using "amateur." Words elucidate concepts. Concepts are discrete, separating something from the larger. Concepts tell us what is and is not the thing being discussed. If all Trapshooters are "amateurs," then the adjective loses its power to define and becomes mere surplusage. If there cannot be a non-amateur, then there cannot be an amateur. Something has to exist outside the concept in order for the concept to have a logical existence.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: Setterman
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 - 09:15 PM ET
Website Address:

If you play softball, and get paid cash or based on winning, are you a professional? Is trap different?

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: recurvyarcher
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 - 09:54 PM ET
Website Address:

If somebody lets out a silent scream, is it still a scream?

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: wayneo
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 - 10:05 PM ET
Website Address:

No.....There are no professional trapshooters in the ATA, because it is not defined in the organization. On the other hand, the USGA has defined the difference between a pro and an armature, and that is why there is the PGA. If you want a pro category for trapshooters, why not start your own league, or organization, and try to get the ATA to recognize it?

Wayne

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 - 10:19 PM ET
Website Address:

Wayne, there are pro trapshooters in the ATA, whether or not they're classified as such by the ATA. Indeed, the ATA has no reason to start kicking the pros out, as they lose those dues and maybe the sanctioning fees.

Why not just call it the USTA and have pro and amateur divisions? In fact, two other USTAs, the US Trotting Association and the US Tennis Association, have pro and amateur classifications. This classification is normal. Just as golf courses have a golf pro, gun clubs can have guys around who've earned their pro card.

As for that other guy who complained about comparing the ATA to the USGA, what's the issue? They're both sporting associations. What's so unique about Trap competitions that obviates comparisons to other sports?

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: Hellcat
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 - 10:24 PM ET
Website Address:

Message Deleted


Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: ivanhoe
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 - 10:30 PM ET
Website Address:

dhip

"Bass Fisherman og on Tour in a PRO circuit."

So does this mean that any Bass fisherman that want to go on tour can go and when he does he becomes a PRO? If not how does he become a PRO? What is the criteria, qualifications, The specifications I am trying to understand what make you a Pro

Setterman

"If you play softball, and get paid cash or based on winning, are you a professional?"

The answer is no, Jim Thorpe I sure every one has heard of him won Olympic gold in and they took his medals away because he got paid for playing Semi-Pro baseball. They later restored his medals because what he did, didn't make him a Pro.

wayneo

"On the other hand, the USGA has defined the difference between a pro and an armature, and that is why there is the PGA."

With that quote can you tell me what makes a Golfer a Pro as apposed to an amateur? I have searched the internet and can not find the criteria for becoming a Pro Golfer or a member of the PGA.

Bob Lawless

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: goatskin
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 - 10:38 PM ET
Website Address:

357, you're caught up in a false bifurcation of practicality and an ethical/moral dilemma that does not exist ... AND comparisons that are not comparative.

Because ATA does not define 'amateur' it also does not define 'professional', however both are broadly 'understood' and accepted terms.

While there are a few shooters who make a living shooting (and related activities), there are not enough of them to matter, nor to set up a circuit. That fact, alone, separates shooting from golf, fishing, tennis, flat-track racing ...

The fact that somebody files a Schedule C makes them prudent, not professional.

Bob

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: trapwife
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 12:03 AM ET
Website Address:

IF winning anything of value, trophy, lewis class, options, etc makes you a professional, or if having a business (selling guns, ammo, classes) makes you a professional, who is left? Only those who shoot for targets only. How long would the sport last like that?

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: goatskin
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 12:13 AM ET
Website Address:

Karla, why would you try to inject a bit of mother-wit into a white-knuckle discussion of nicely-nuanced nincompoopery?

Don't you have books to keep or taxes to do, or receipts to track down? :-)

Have a delightful ...

Bob

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 12:32 AM ET
Website Address:

Goatskin, the matter of whether someone makes a living at an activity hardly settles whether they are a pro.

I know pro musicians who make their living doing something besides playing music. Not all pro shooters are Tom Knapp, and not all pro musicians are Tom Petty.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: goatskin
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 01:21 AM ET
Website Address:

err ... Precisely.

Again, I suggest that the common understanding of the plain language 'Amateur' Trap Association is an undefined big tent concept, and totally unlike other vaguely analogous sporting collectives.

Bob

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: Hap MecTweaks
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 02:35 AM ET
Website Address:

Being a PROFESSIONAL and or shooting better than the so-called professionals while classed as an amature are two entirely different matters, if it matters. In our sport, lots of our amatures can kick the krap outa most of the industry reps that were at one time called "professional" shooters.

Hap

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: BIGDON
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 06:08 AM ET
Website Address:

Another who knows nothing seeks to stir up the minions with superflulose BS.

Don

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: copper
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 06:38 AM ET
Website Address:

Professional at any sport might be what we become by the amount of time spent perfecting it labeled or not. Why a lot drop out of Trap shooting is they think they can comepete at high leval shooting against people who have shot more in a couple years and have done that for years , than they ever have. There are few exceptions in sports even the best have to practice a lot shoot as much as some work at a given job, Like jobs some become good and some great

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: wayneo
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 06:50 AM ET
Website Address: http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Amateur-Status/Rule-02/

Bob, here ya go. The top link is the USGA definition of a PRO.

The bottom link is the PGA classifications of Pros. Wayne

http://www.pga.com/pga-america/member-classifications

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: dhip
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 06:52 AM ET
Website Address:

Ivanhoe

Technically,,YES,,in Bass fishing it's a choice,you pay the Pro entry level fees,fish the PRO circuits,,YES your a Pro and accepted as that.

Important word you list is "specifications",,seems each sport has their own,set up by the ruling bodies..Apparently,ATA has no specification.There by leaving it floating in the grey area of definition,which really clutters up the situation.

To me,it's a status thing,,,if you want to be a Pro,,declare it,let people know.However,I don't think it's fair to point at someone saying their a PRO just because the win consistantly.I'm new at this sport,so I get whupped a lot,that doesn't make those that whup me PRO's,theyr'e just more experienced and have learned in their time on the trap line.I guess as I get older,I get more laid back and considerate of those who have put the time and money into a particuliar sport.Whining about how good someone is just isn't my style anymore,(use to when I was young and dumb,as they say).As stated above,to me ,,,,PRO is a status one declares if they want the recognition and repect that comes with it.

Doug H.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: Setterman
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 07:01 AM ET
Website Address:

There are some professional bitchers on this site that don't get paid!

BIGDON...."minions of superflulos"?? Whewwwwwwy, them sure is fancy words!

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: ivanhoe
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 07:22 AM ET
Website Address:

Well Wayne and Doug I thank you for the information. The website Wayne posted say exactly what I thought they would say. Doug said exactly what I thought about being a Bass Pro.

Again thank the both of you.

Bob Lawless

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: loop02
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 07:47 AM ET
Website Address:

The term is spelled superfluous, and there is plenty of it on here.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 08:16 AM ET
Website Address:

"I suggest that the common understanding of the plain language 'Amateur' Trap Association is an undefined big tent concept, and totally unlike other vaguely analogous sporting collectives."

Come on, Goat. There's nothing about this sport that makes it "totally unlike" other sports or that makes other sports only "vaguely analogous."

The ATA is modifying "Trap" with "Amateur." Nobody asked it to use the adjective. It willingly chose to delineate amateur from the larger world. Syntactical honesty therefore demands that the adjective have a meaning and not be mere empty adornment. Something must be amateur, and something else must be (not) amateur.

As for the other poster who noted that some amateurs beat pros, so what? Bobby Jones won the U.S. Open four times as an amateur. Tiger Woods was one hell of an amateur golfer.

Did the person seeking the USGA rules on amateur status not see the very first post in this thread?

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: Recoil Sissy
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 08:26 AM ET
Website Address:

Setterman:

The mere title of this thread is sufficient cause for tremulus fear and trepidation. I was, however, pleasantly surprised this morning when I broke down and read the posts.

The tedious nature of the to and fro arguments was entirely predictable but I was pleasantly surprised by some creative vocabulary. Noteworthy examples include: nincompoopery, superfluous, elucidate, surplusage, bifucation, and minions.

Kudos to the contributors!

sissy

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 08:29 AM ET
Website Address:

Pool, or Pocket Billiards, is another sport that's analogous to what we do. Here's their means of achieving pro status:

Men's

http://www.upatour.com/professional-pool-player.php

Women's

http://www.wpba.com/cms/?pid=1000619

Here's the UPA's FAQ. It seems like this language could be used, in toto, by the ATA:

How do I become a Professional Pool Player?

The UPA has worked very hard to create a clear cut path for anyone who wants to compete on a professional level. Simply join the UPA and begin your journey of attaining your Official U.S. Professional Ranking. What do I do after I join?

It’s easy, simply pick/choose from our selection of Recognized events, compete, and help us keep track of your progress. Can anyone join the Touring Pro Program?

Yes. Whether you want to actually join the circuit or simply want to become a supporting Member of our Association we welcome you to Join Us. What are the benefits of joining the UPA?

The UPA provides a set structure for those who dream of being professional pool players to achieve their goals. As the UPA grows this will allow its members to further reach the media spotlight, attain sponsors, and be earn a living from the sport you love. Can I join if just want to play for fun or support the UPA?

Yes! Whatever your decision on the tournament trail you are an important part of our Association as well as the future of the sport. Can I purchase a membership on behalf of a friend or loved one?

Of course! If you have a friend or loved one that you know would enjoy this special gift simply let us know and be sure to give us their information when filling out the Member’s information. How much are Annual Membership dues?

Our Touring Professional Program is only $165 a year. Do I have to sign any type of contract to join the UPA?

No. There are no contracts to sign. However the UPA does require that each member understand that we are not responsible for a promoter’s actions, payouts, cancellations, event changes, etc. How many Tournaments are on the calendar?

Typically there are 7 to 10 events a year. We search throughout the entire Billiard Industry and select the best available events for our Members to compete in.

Do any of these events ever take place in other countries?

No, all events listed in our season are found here in the United States. How will I know which events to play in?

The UPA will notify its members periodically and before each event. You can also check our Recognized event Schedule by Clicking Here. Do I have to play in every event in order to receive my U.S. Ranking?

No, you can play in however many events you choose, just keep in mind that more events mean more points towards your U.S. Pro Ranking. Can I decide which events I want to compete in?

Yes. Not all players are willing or able to compete in every event on our Tour Schedule. We suggest you play in the events that best suit your personal goals and schedule. Are some events worth more points than others?

Yes. Each event is marked as either a 1 STAR or 2 STAR event depending on several criteria such as; player field, added prize fund, expected talent, etc. 1 STAR events are only worth half the points found in our Ranking System. How are points accrued for the U.S. Ranking?

Points are based on each player’s final standing in each event. Once we confirm the player’s position we prescribe the set amount of points to each of our member’s Ranking. Do I need to place in the money in order to receive points towards my ranking?

No. Prize money payouts vary from event to event. Our ranking process recognizes a player’s achievements beyond that of just prize money. Please Click Here to see our Ranking System. How does the UPA track my progress from event to event?

After each event all Touring Pro Members must fill out a Tournament Placement Form which will help us keep track and confirm your progress. Do all tournaments use the same rules?

Rules vary from promoter to promoter. Though UPA rules are encouraged, event promoters may or may not utilize UPA Rules & Regulations. How do I qualify to compete in the World Championships?

The UPA will make sure that all events affecting a potential invite to World Championships will be included in the schedule. (These events are typically considered 2 STAR Events). Does the UPA sponsor any players?

The UPA does not sponsor individual players. However we do provide a platform for sponsors to see your ranking status, and we also provide industry tips and hints on how to attain sponsorship packages. Are the events on the calendar strictly9-ball tournaments?

UPA Recognized events will vary from event to event. This variety demonstrates a player’s skill set and may also affect the status of the event. Tournaments may be 10-ball, 9-ball, 8-ball, 1 Pocket, and Straight Pool or 14.1. What are the typical costs associated with competing in an event?

Total costs range from $350 - $2,000 depending on several factors; Entry Fees, travel, lodging, food, personal needs, etc. How much are tournament entry fees?

Tournament entry fees range between $250 - $1,000 depending on the size and scope of each event. Entry Fee amounts are determined by individual promoters and not the UPA. What are some of the future plans of the Association?

The UPA has a great future ahead for all of our members. Currently we are working on the expansion of our Amateur Pool league program in order to secure funding for an increase in prize fund and more tour stops. What can I do if my questions are not answered here?

Just give us a call at (877)788-7227 or Click Here to send us an email. What’s the next step in becoming a Touring Professional?

Become a UPA Touring Professional today! Click Here to join us online. You are an important part of the future of this sport!

Here's the FAQ on status from the Women's association. It, too, makes a great deal of sense and could also be employed by the ATA.

There are four categories of Player Members: Amateur, Semi-Professional, Professional (Active or Inactive) and Touring Professional.

Amateur Members Amateurs can join the WPBA directly (by paying $35 to the WPBA) or be granted membership through their current affiliation with a WPBA-sanctioned Regional Tour (by paying the Regional Tour's membership fee). By joining the WPBA directly, you are entitled to receive the WPBA monthly newsletter; however, you are not entitled to play in a WPBA-sanctioned Regional Tour or in WPBA pro tournaments. To be eligible to play in a Regional Tour, you must join that Regional Tour directly. The WPBA currently sanctions eight (8) Regional Tours located in several areas of the country. Regional Tours are eligible to hold local qualifying tournaments for WPBA pro tournaments, or to send their top players in their own season's qualifying format to WPBA pro tournaments. Amateur players may also earn Semi-Pro status by playing in Regional Tour events or winning WPBA qualifiers.

Semi-Professional Members Once qualifying for participation in a WPBA pro tournament, Amateur Members upgrade their membership status to Semi-Professional member status. The membership fee for a Semi-Pro is $100. Semi-Pros continue to receive the WPBA monthly newsletter, receive a certificate of accomplishment, become eligible to compete in WPBA pro tournaments and become eligible to be included in the WPBA pro ranking list.

Professional Members After placing in the top half of the field in a minimum of four (4) WPBA pro tournaments within a consecutive twelve-month period, the Semi-Pro is automatically upgraded to Professional status. The Pro membership fee is $150. Once you become a Pro, you cannot lose that status with the WPBA unless you upgrade to Active Professional or Touring Professional status. A Pro may be upgraded to Active Professional member status when she competes in at least 50% of WPBA pro tournaments within a consecutive twelve-month period. The membership fee for an Active Pro is $200. Active Pros receive priority selection above all other Pros and Semi-Pros (regardless of ranking) on the waiting list to compete in WPBA pro tournaments. Active Pros that do not compete in at least 50% of WPBA pro tournaments within a consecutive twelve-month period receive Inactive Pro status.

Touring Professional Members Pros meeting minimum participation requirements (having played in 80% of WPBA pro tournaments annually) are upgraded to Touring Professional status. The Touring Pro membership fee is $250. Touring Pros are eligible for seeding and selection privileges, i.e., eligible by ranking to compete in the WPA World Championships, invitational tournaments, etc. Touring Pros are also eligible to participate in the Guaranteed Entry Fee Program, which enables them to pay their $500 entry fee for each WPBA pro tournament in person at the players' meeting prior to the commencement of the tournament; rather than mailing the $500 entry fee to the WPBA office prior to the tournament. Other privileges of being a Touring Pro are inclusion in WPBA picture packs, Tour poster and Tour program.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: Bruce Specht
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 08:38 AM ET
Website Address:

Try a top water this ain't working

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: 1oldtimer
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 09:22 AM ET
Website Address:

After much consideration,I have decided to take up golf,fishing and billiards. Afterall,they at least have some defined rules and I might do better at them. Clyde Doll

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: BIGDON
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 09:27 AM ET
Website Address:

Take it down the road. "Becuase quite frankly 357 we don't give a damn".

The ATA has resolved this question with it's various classes and yardage groups. Shoot within your own group/class and when you get better move up and when you get to the top then you can bitch and whine about getting your butt beat by the so called pros.

They must have a whinners school somewhere because you are getting better, does that mean you are now a professional whinner??

Don

Setterman sometimes my fingers go faster than my brain. You didn't know I knew words over 4 letters.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: ivanhoe
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 09:29 AM ET
Website Address:

smoking357 it would seem that you are in a different ball park form the previous discussion involving the subject of Pros.

You have said many different thing here so tell us just what is your point? Are you trying to start a Pro division, class, or association? You have said a lot about the rules of other association or organizations. What you haven't said is where is this discussion going? You said,

"The ATA is modifying "Trap" with "Amateur." Nobody asked it to use the adjective. It willingly chose to delineate amateur from the larger world."

So if what you say is correct just what difference does it make and why are you seemingly so concerned???

Bob Lawless

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: BigM-Perazzi
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 09:29 AM ET
Website Address:

to quote the late Charles Schultz on the subject.

"GOOD GRIEF!"

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 09:48 AM ET
Website Address:

Bigdumbdon, your posts never make any sense, and you're in typical form today. You said:

"The ATA has resolved this question with it's various classes and yardage groups."

That doesn't "resolve" anything. The question before is us pro vs. amateur. Amateurs can be excellent and even better than pros, but that doesn't answer the question.

You also tossed out this hilarious nugget:

"They must have a whinners school somewhere because you are getting better, does that mean you are now a professional whinner??"

Bigdumb, WTF is a "whinner?"

Bob, you said:

"So if what you say is correct just what difference does it make and why are you seemingly so concerned???"

That's a dodge, and you know it. We're talking about the ATA and pro vs. amateur. Discussions of me are off-topic.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 09:58 AM ET
Website Address:

After seeing so many bizarre and failed posts trying in the most Clintonesque fashion to say that a pro is an amateur, I know what the problem is with these shooters refusing to be honest about pros calling themselves amateurs. So many of these trapshooters, by virtue of money earned and competitions entered, would be classified as pros if the ATA adopted even the most basic sort of distinction.

Whenever pros would enter an event, they'd have to declare themselves as such, and every shot they take would have to occur from the 27 yard line, and they'd otherwise be held to the highest performance standards and given the most rigorous challenges. A lot of these would-be pro shooters enjoy not having to face the scrutiny that comes with being a pro.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: perga1
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 10:52 AM ET
Website Address:

For anyone interested here's what used to be in the rule book:

The Interstate Association rule book called "Trapshooting-The Patriotic Sport" dated around 1918. The Interstate, made up of manufacturers, ran the game until the American Trapshooting Association and the Amateur Trapshooting Association took over. Anyway it includes the following:

The following rules defining an amateur and professional in trapshooting, prepared several years ago by the tournament committee of the Interstate Association, were adopted: Amateur,-Any shooter not dependent upon his skill as a trapshot as a means of livelihood, either directly or indirectly, or in part or whole, including employes or manufacturers of, or dealers in, firearms, ammunition, powder, traps, targets and other trapshooting accessories, and who does not receive any compensation or concession, monetary or otherwise, or allowance for expenses or trapshooting supplies from such manufacturers or dealers, shall be classed as an amateur. Professional,-Any shooter, including employes or manufacturers of, or dealers in, firearms, ammunition, powder, targets, traps and other trapshooting accesories, who receives his salary or any portion of his salary, or any expenses of any kind for use in trapshooting, or rebate on the market price of such articles, as compensation for the promotion of the sale or advertisement of any such products handled by such manufacturers, shall be classed as a professional.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 11:10 AM ET
Website Address:

Great research, Perga.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: Fr. Bru
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 11:37 AM ET
Website Address:

Bifurcation... I love it. Now there's a word for all those who say that most of us on trapshooters are merely monosyllabic cro magnons! Go get 'em Bob!

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: ivanhoe
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 11:38 AM ET
Website Address:

smoking357

"So if what you say is correct just what difference does it make and why are you seemingly so concerned???"

I asked you 4 questions you answer none as a matter of fact you called my last question "a dodge". The only one I see dodging anything is you. I asked the question to try to avoid an argument. You don't seem to give a damn if what your motives are understood or not. Well so be it I tried to do the right thing. Now I am out of options.

All threads in the past that have involved talks about Pro class, division, have gone nowhere now you start a thread that at the time I am writing this has 46 post 10 of which belong to you. In those ten post you have said nothing when ask a civil question like you say it is a dodge.

Well here is what I think you posted a link to the Professional Poolplayers Ass this is the same as all the others if you wish to join you can but no one can force you to.

What is wanted here by those that are complaining is a way to make the shooters that are winning all the money and titles and awards. Shoot for their own money and titles and awards. There is no way to make that come about because they can't be forced to become a Pro. No sport in existence forces their members to become Pro it just isn't done. If they don't want to be Pros what are you going to do about it??? Maybe you can throw them out, RIGHT.You said,

"That doesn't "resolve" anything. The question before is us pro vs. amateur. Amateurs can be excellent and even better than pros, but that doesn't answer the question."

Well you are correct it doesn't answer the question. That is because I have yet to see the question. Just what is the question? There is a question in the title of this thread. Yet in all of your 10 posts you haven't even come close to talking about the question in the title. Let alone answering it. You also said,

"The ATA is modifying "Trap" with "Amateur." Nobody asked it to use the adjective"

I see the name of the association as just that a name that describes the fact that any shooter in the ass. is an amateur in the vernacular that no one is paid to shoot the ATA provides no wages to any shooter. No money is paid to any shooter because he is a shooter. Monies from purses and options are paid by the shooters not the ATA. If no one play any options there are no payouts. It is a description of how the association treats amateur status nothing more.

So again I will ask Where are you going with this crap? What is your point? What do you hope to gain with this thread? Last but not least why don't you get to the point of this thread instead of talking about some drivel that isn't saying anything. This is definitely a fishing expedition. If that is a dodge just what the hell have you been doing in your last 10 posts????

Bob Lawless

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 11:42 AM ET
Website Address:

Message Deleted


Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 11:56 AM ET
Website Address:

"I asked you 4 questions you answer none as a matter of fact you called my last question "a dodge". The only one I see dodging anything is you. I asked the question to try to avoid an argument. You don't seem to give a damn if what your motives are understood or not. Well so be it I tried to do the right thing. Now I am out of options."

Bob, man, I've tried to be nice, but, come on, figure it out!

QUIT ASKING **ME** QUESTIONS!!!!!!!!!! I'M NOT THE SUBJECT. MY "MOTIVATIONS" ARE COMPLETELY, TOTALLY AND THOROUGHLY IRRELEVANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"What is wanted here by those that are complaining is a way to make the shooters that are winning all the money and titles and awards."

What? Huh?

"Well you are correct it doesn't answer the question. That is because I have yet to see the question. Just what is the question? There is a question in the title of this thread. Yet in all of your 10 posts you haven't even come close to talking about the question in the title. Let alone answering it. You also said,"

Are you serious? Really? You can't figure out what the question is? Seriously?

"I see the name of the association as just that a name that describes the fact that any shooter in the ass. is an amateur in the vernacular that no one is paid to shoot the ATA provides no wages to any shooter."

So? How is that relevant? The NFL doesn't pay any players.

"It is a description of how the association treats amateur status nothing more."

And how does it classify professional status? What does the "Amateur" in the name distinguish? What is not amateur?

"So again I will ask Where are you going with this crap?"

Boy, smarten up. Seriously. If you're not up to this, sit back and let other people talk. All you're trying to do is derail this discussion with subterfuge.

"What is your point? What do you hope to gain with this thread? Last but not least why don't you get to the point of this thread instead of talking about some drivel that isn't saying anything."

Figure it out. This is my thread. This thread is my point. And, Son, when I talk, you can best be assured that what I say, at least to the likes of you, is not "drivel." I'm the pro, on this score. I do get paid for what I write and say.

"This is definitely a fishing expedition. If that is a dodge just what the hell have you been doing in your last 10 posts???? "

You're ducking and covering, trying to keep a real question from being asked, because you're trying to prevent a certain outcome from occurring. You're littering this thread with lies and deceptions in hopes of throwing up a smokescreen to deflect an inquiry from a subject you find uncomfortable.

That ain't the way to run business, Son, and it ain't the way to have an honest discussion with others.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: ivanhoe
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 01:04 PM ET
Website Address:

smoking357

"Bob, man, I've tried to be nice, but, come on, figure it out!"

If I must figure it out where is the discussion? If Joe sh** the rag man figures it one way and Jeff Beboob figures it another way. How is it possible to discuss it.

"Are you serious? Really? You can't figure out what the question is? Seriously?"

No I can't can you? If you can share your wisdom please?

"QUIT ASKING **ME** QUESTIONS!!!!!!!!!! I'M NOT THE SUBJECT. MY "MOTIVATIONS" ARE COMPLETELY, TOTALLY AND THOROUGHLY IRRELEVANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

A little advice don't yell at me blow hard. I asked you the question because you are the one doing all the talking and there are no points being made, or any subject just your drivel that I am supposed to figure out.

"So? How is that relevant? The NFL doesn't pay any players."

No then who does and don't say the teams because they are the NFL

"And how does it classify professional status? What does the "Amateur" in the name distinguish? What is not amateur?"

I will try it again as you seem to be having trouble understanding the concept. If there are no paid shooters which is what a professional is who would need to be classified as a PRO????????

"Figure it out. This is my thread. This thread is my point. And, Son, when I talk, you can best be assured that what I say, at least to the likes of you, is not "drivel." On this score, I'm the pro, on this score. I do get paid for what I write and say."

Well just a little information for you your not getting paid here. This isn't a book least of all a mystery if you got something to say say it. You waste more words to say nothing(that is drivel to me)then anyone else on here at least with those that aren't Pros. You talk about a question that isn't here and you play guessing game and you get to discuss the probable answers to the question that aren't here.

Well you have really out done yourself on this one.

"You're ducking and covering, trying to keep a real question from being asked, because you're trying to prevent a certain outcome from occurring. You're littering this thread with lies and deceptions in hopes of throwing up a smokescreen to deflect an inquiry from a subject you find uncomfortable."

If I am ducking and covering to keep the real question from being asked.

How can I be littering this thread with lies and deceptions in hopes of throwing up a smokescreen to deflect an inquiry from a subject you find uncomfortable. When I can't find a subject to begin with????

Are you sure you aren't an escapee from a mental ward somewhere???

"That ain't the way to run business, Son, and it ain't the way to have an honest discussion with others"

What business am I running a business honestly am I running a business seriously am I??? BTW just who are the others you refer to? The only one in this this thread talking about what ever it is you are talking about is you.

"Boy, smarten up. Seriously. If you're not up to this, sit back and let other people talk."

So that is what this is about you just want us to all to shut up so you can bloviate. What is the problem don't they let you talk at home????

You have a nice discussion with yourself now ya hear.

Bob Lawless

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: KENENT1
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 01:24 PM ET
Website Address:

WOW......that's 10 minutes I'll never get back. lol

I would think anyone that gets endorsements and makes income teaching shooting would be considered professional, the shooting to that point would be amateur.

flame away!!

tony

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: grnberetcj
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 01:30 PM ET
Website Address:

It's pretty apparent that the people who are poor shooter's want to feel better about themselves by having the better shooter's penalized to the point where the poor shooter's can win an event (even with a 81 or so).

What a crock of horse hockey!!

Curt

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: 1oldtimer
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 01:37 PM ET
Website Address:

Question? Are there professional Trapshooters? A certain trapshooter's wife informed me NO,just All-Americans. By the way is TOO TALL JONES TOO TALL? Clyde Doll

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: biff
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 01:56 PM ET
Website Address:

357, what is the point you are trying to make? You probably need to ask a question that can be answered "Yes" or "No". Many on here see your post as something to stir a pot and get arguments started which will NOT answer the question you posted.

I could never play golf shoulder to shoulder with Tiger Woods, but many times at large trapshoots you can shoot on a squad of Legends like big Leo!

I have no plans in the future to "go pro" so what you are asking seems irrevelant to many on here with the many responses about fishing is their way of saying you are trying to bait for arguments. No offense, but many topics have been beat to death....just enjoy the sport and break a target! Biff

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: Git-ER-Done
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 02:14 PM ET
Website Address:

There aren't any professionals in Trap and don't believe them when they say there is an oil spill in the Gulf either. The people in charge at the top of our gov't and organization will take care of all of our needs, don't you worry. Remember, at the top " it's me first and then forget you."

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: goatskin
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 02:19 PM ET
Website Address:

Fr.Bru: "Bifurcation... I love it. Now there's a word for all those who say that most of us on trapshooters are merely monosyllabic cro magnons! Go get 'em Bob! "

I musta stayed in a Holiday Inn Express, once ...

Bob

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smsnyder
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 02:54 PM ET
Website Address:

Why and when were the rules changed as Perga 1 discribed?

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: daveberlet
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 03:26 PM ET
Website Address:

I don't understand all the bickering about pro or amateur shooters. A very sinple way to end this argument wuld be for the ATA to issue 2 different color average cards.

To make it easy for everyone lets say the governing body issues red and green cards. Red is issued for Pros and Green is for Amateur shooters. Members with a red card can play any or all options and the shooters with a green (amateur)card are eligible to shoot for targets only. I believe this would end the Pro argument and it should make everyone HAPPY.

Dave

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: Hap MecTweaks
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 03:32 PM ET
Website Address:

I wonder why almost every suggestion for a fix doesn't include the same type of fix our past ATA leadership saw fit to do?

Anything other than following that path will further jeopardize the games integrity and growth. Keep our amateur status for everyone!!

Hap

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 03:40 PM ET
Website Address:

“It's pretty apparent that the people who are poor shooter's want to feel better about themselves by having the better shooter's penalized to the point where the poor shooter's can win an event (even with a 81 or so). What a crock of horse hockey!! Curt”

Where has anyone said that, Curt?

See? This is what I’m talking about. I asked a simple question and was met with a phalanx of defensiveness and obfuscation. Evidently, I’ve touched a very sensitive nerve with some people who are desperately trying to keep a certain outcome from occurring.

“357, what is the point you are trying to make? You probably need to ask a question that can be answered "Yes" or "No". Many on here see your post as something to stir a pot and get arguments started which will NOT answer the question you posted.”

I merely asked a question, Biff. The defensiveness thrown up in attempting to excuse the question is providing me with a better answer than a direct answer to the question would have.

“I have no plans in the future to "go pro" so what you are asking seems irrevelant to many on here with the many responses about fishing is their way of saying you are trying to bait for arguments.”

Perhaps under a different classification structure you would already have become a pro.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: perga1
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 03:42 PM ET
Website Address:

Hap, I don't think anyone would be looking at a Pro category if the handicap system were fair to all without some arbitrary maximum yardage. With the current system only the less than proficient 27 yarders are required to shoot at distances beyond their ability.JRM

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: spitter
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 05:58 PM ET
Website Address:

Trapshooting is like a box of chocolates... when things get heated up - it sure gets messy!

regards all,

Jay

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smsnyder
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 06:07 PM ET
Website Address:

The answer is 3 hole targets, 7/8 or 1 oz loads, reducing handicap yardage to 17 yards for the poor shooters. keep 27 yards were it is. Just like the oylimpics and sporting clay game we must reduce the number of perfect scores. I know numerous shooters who have quit the sport because they feel they have to shoot perfect scores. They choose sporting clays because the often don't have to be perfect to win. Futhermore, they can relax more.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smsnyder
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 06:18 PM ET
Website Address:

The answer is 3 hole targets, 7/8 or 1 oz loads, reducing handicap yardage to 17 yards for the poor shooters. keep 27 yards were it is. Just like the oylimpics and sporting clay game we must reduce the number of perfect scores.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: recurvyarcher
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 06:59 PM ET
Website Address:

Just shoot your damn targets people, and stop feeling slighted because you can't shoot as well as those at the top. If most of us shot that well, then they would have a reason to change the rules. If most of us DON'T shoot that well, changing to 3-hole targets and different loads is only going to hurt the majority like us who are average shooters. The big dogs are still going to WHOP YORE ASS (that's southern for "Strike your bifurcated Posterior Cushioning").

And don't think that a few more yards on the end of the line are gonna help either, because I've seen some of these guys shoot from the back of a pick up truck in the parking lot).

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: RWS52
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 08:27 PM ET
Website Address:

Just to add to what perga1 stated: The A in ATA was changed from American to Amateur because the association was trying to get across the idea that the professionals had been removed. Before the time of the American Association, it was felt that the majority of the winning was done by the minority of the shooters. Nothing has changed here except the names,just substitute Bogardus,Carver,and Heikes, for Harrison, Campbell, and Ohye. The difference is that the earlier individuals were excluded from competing for prize money. This is where the Industry class came from in the ATA. These shooters were paid by the manufacturers to use and promote their products. If anything, the question should be, what happened to the Industry class? BTW for those complaining about today's top shooters, here's a factoid. 1902 Grand American Handicap(at 25 live birds), 493 shooters, 31 25 straights, max yardage at 31. It's been a tough game to win for over 100 years at the top level.

Personally, I haven't shot registered targets for years. I do remember shooting with a couple great shooters in the 80's, a guy named Leo Harrison and another one named Kay Ohye. (Sorry Harlan, don't remember you until the 90's) There were many others that chose to either quit or shoot less. The point here is, that was 30 years ago folks. These guys have more than put in their time and do they win everything? No. Bob Munson won the 2009 GAH, was so happy for him, he's only been shooting for what, 35+ years. How about George Snellenberger, he's won almost all of the prelim events at the Grand, and only been at it almost 50 years, is he a pro? There are more shooters capable of winning now than probably any time before. Read Trap & Field, lots of great scores being shot everywhere. Are they all pro's? Me thinks not.

Mark Peifer

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: THE REBEL
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 10:59 PM ET
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Message Deleted


Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: biff
Date: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 - 11:24 PM ET
Website Address:

IF the Handicap system was FAIR and PERFECT, then everyone would shoot the exact same score whether they were a good shot or not! If you don't have the ability or talent you'll never shoot handicap very well....is it the money you're after? Biff

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: 221
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 01:23 AM ET
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And the growth rate of the ATA over the last 20 yrs IS ????????

And the projected growth rate for the next decade IS ?????????

Keep telling each other how great it is and BS'ing each other with big words......seems your all on the right track.LOL

Everyone that questions the status quo, has to be a Democrat......RIGHT

The same bunch wants to suppress anyone that has suggestions for what is not in step with the times.

Seems there are less and less shooters, willing to contribute to what has become a haven for a bunch of snooty old guys.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: The Literalist
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 07:47 AM ET
Website Address:

Message Deleted


Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 07:56 AM ET
Website Address:

"So yeah, to reiterate, there are "pros" (by most definitions of the word.) But a high-90's percent of us aren't. "

What is that supposed to prove? Dick's Sporting Goods sells a lot of golf clubs. Almost none, as a proportion of total golf club sales, are sold to pros.

Guitar Center sells a lot of guitars. Again, a very thin percentage are sold to pros.

Well over 90% of footballs are not purchased by the NFL.

Over 90% of people in every activity are not engaged in it professionally.

"Are there shooters who make money at trap? Sure there are. Of course.

Are there any shooters whose only (or "main") income is trap? A few.

But most shooters don't care to change anything."

By calling everyone an "amateur," when some clearly are not, the name is inaccurate and misleading.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: BigM-Perazzi
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 08:01 AM ET
Website Address:

357 said "By calling everyone an "amateur," when some clearly are not, the name

is inaccurate and misleading. "

Yep, no argument here. But, it is what it is.

I owned ITT stock. Never was able to use the Telegraph.But,also never thought it

was an issue of importance.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: grnberetcj
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 08:11 AM ET
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Hey 357.....

If these questions you pose are burning a hole in your brain and you're not satisfied with the answers/comments herein, then please feel free to contact the president of the ATA. I'm sure you'll receive an adroit response in a timely manner.

Curt

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: oleolliedawg
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 08:22 AM ET
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And you wonder why over 2/3 of Krieghoff gun sales are Sporting Clays guns. Must be because of the tremendous interest in Trapshooting!!

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: JTEA
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 08:24 AM ET
Website Address:

If you receive money you are considered a professional. Apparently there is a movement to either abolish added money options or give everyone a payout.

This whole topic went around PA before this web site existed and it was made clear that their would be options for all or options for none. Anyone remember the Industry Class? By the way, I know of shooters who are not "Champions" who play many options, win some money and use it to write off their expenses. Are they professionals? (one is an accountant) If you don't like the options, don't play them. That's why there are class trophies. I don't recall a "Professional" shooting in the 21 > 24 yardage group.

This debate as though we are in a 1980's economy is nothing short of uninformed. The demographics are clear that the trap shooter base is dying off. This debate over a small added prize (taken in context of total expenditures - gun, travel, fees etc.) is very trivial in the whole picture. How about a chart depicting the number of shooters who don't shoot now due to age and inability?

This wreaks of the last stages of the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire where a handful of scavengers scrap over the remaining food, turning their backs on the history and reasons for the demise.

JT

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: scooterbum
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 08:30 AM ET
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And the reasons for their demise were....?

Speak up!

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: JTEA
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 08:59 AM ET
Website Address:

It's called the grim reaper, diabetes, aging in general. Average age at the clubs I attend must be around 62 - 65, including the PA State Shoot. I hear of major medical issues; people with cancer, knee replacements, etc. on a weekly basis. Far fewer younger shooters and people in their 30's now shooting. They have other interests and more ways to spend their time and money. That doesn't mean we have to turn on each other. Many shooters I know see no reason to shoot ATA targets - just added expense. They do meat and money shoots only.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: scooterbum
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 09:07 AM ET
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Actually, your example of the demise of the Roman Empire provides a wonderful analogy, to compare with the trapshooting problem. Perhaps a perfect comparison.

The Roman Empire, perhaps mostly it’s ruling class, were being poisoned, by the very water that they were drinking. You see, they could afford to drink from lead lined pots, and were developing lead poisoning, which altered their ability to lead their nation. Their nation was in decline from within.

Does this sound familiar?

You see, the Romans needed change. But they had no idea of what change was needed. No one knew about the effects of lead poisoning.

The Empire never died off, it merely faded away. Not all were drinking from lead lined pots.

This is not unlike the situation we have in trapshooting. Some realize that a change is needed, others are impervious to the need.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: BIGDON
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 09:21 AM ET
Website Address:

I personally am tired of people telling me Sporting Clays number are just booming. Put the numbers up and where they are. I know of several SC courses that have closed their doors - not enought shooters. I don't know of any trap clubs locally (within 50 miles who have closed), I do know of several growing. If I want to shoot SC I have to travel 70+ miles. Most successful SC are closer to big cities. Simialarities to golf may help.

Trap is a more small town country boy, let's go hunting(not preserves) type and it has been hit by the economy harder. You sporties had better watch your brags or a few ole county boys will give you a good case of "whoop ass".

Why don't you who want to change the ATA handicap system so bad go change the SC's as I hear them whining a lot too.

You have choices to make with any game and simply put to me a long time ago about all sports. "Either accept the rules and play the game or sit on the sidelines". This also can be applied to life, your career and many things. You are like the guy who gets a new job and then wants to tell them how to run the company.

If you worried about your shooting half as much you might to be a "semi-pro".

Don

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 09:28 AM ET
Website Address:

Longshooter comes in with a great response. Trap is fun. There's no reason why I should be in the first quartile of age distribution at the Trap clubs I visit.

Trap needs to market and bring this sport to new people as an alternative to Golf, Tennis, running, etc.

So often in Trap I see a bunch of stubborn fuddy-duddies who are stuck in 1962.

The way I see it, if you're not bringing someone new to a Trap club, you're not helping. The ATA needs to be taking out ads in Men's Fitness, GQ, Rolling Stone and other magazines of general distribution to adult males.

I have scripted a low-budget and cheerfully hokey television ad that the ATA could run on local media markets.

Every Trap range I visit tells me about all the houses on the line that used to run but have seen the traps pulled out of them.

Men aren't teaching shooting to their kids, anymore. People need to put this sport in front of younger generations however they can.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: ivanhoe
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 09:28 AM ET
Website Address:

The Literalist

"Are there shooters who make money at trap? Sure there are. Of course.

Are there any shooters whose only (or "main") income is trap? A few.

But most shooters don't care to change anything. Most don't regularly compete for added money and the vast majority don't play the options ( The scratch-offs we call "Lewis class" don't count.)"

These statements are very true, so this is true and it would appear that there are Pros in the ATA. With that being said my question now is just what can or should we do about it????

You can set up a Pro class, division or what ever you would call it. Can you make, force or require anyone to be a Pro? If you were to try they have options. They can comply or quit do you have so many members that you can afford to force even a hand full to quit???? I think not so tell us all what is bad about having what some shooters consider Pros?

I try to remember as I read you all saying if they sell gun and shells and accessories, if they teach classes in how to shoot trap their way, or any other method they use to derive the income you all seem to feel makes them Pros. None of them to my knowledge makes any of this money through ATA sanctioned activities. The ATA doesn't get monies from the classes they teach or monies from anyones gun or ammo sales so why all the concern about the name of the association?

Unless any of you can come up with a sure fired way to make sure those that could be considered Pros will become Pros I say leave it alone. Leave the name alone also.

Bob Lawless

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 09:32 AM ET
Website Address:

"Trap is a more small town country boy, let's go hunting(not preserves) type"

No. Not even close. In Trap's glory days, it was driven by city slickers, like all successful activities. Country people are hunters and shoot only enough rounds to bring in game. City people didn't hunt as often, so they and shot mainly for sport.

Trap was built on the same crowd that liked fine cars, horse racing, trips to casinos and a porterhouse for dinner.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: oleolliedawg
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 09:33 AM ET
Website Address:

Facts, just facts BIGDON ole boy. Golf courses are closing all over the country but I suppose you'll tell us it's because Golf is dying. You might want to journey over to some Sporting Clays courses and open your eyes. What you might see is exactly what Trap lacks-younger shooters. No, I'm not talking about heavily subsidized 16 year olds but the 20-40 yo's!!

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 09:36 AM ET
Website Address:

Oleo is right. Sporting Clays is really capturing the attention of the 20-40 year olds. It's got a pizazz that this age group loves. They load up the golf cart with a bunch of provisions and gear and head out on the course, not to be seen for a while. Every time I see them come back, they look pleased as punch.

People love that Sporting Clays. Bullseye shooting used to be #1, but now the kids are shooting the practical pistol games.

I worry that Trap will go the way of lawn bowling.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: JTEA
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 09:40 AM ET
Website Address:

Not sure about your area, but the shooters in our area (PA) in their 30's are into handgun competitions. I recently went to a very small club near me, was very surprised to see at least 45 shooters doing the IDPA shoot. It is growing, another club added two more shooting pits last year and now have competitions on a monthly basis. They are already in the black for the year, no clay targets to buy!

I have been spending more time shooting handguns as well and plan to go more that direction in the future. It has nothing to do with the ATA rules and which piece of plastic is handed out at the end of the day, nor winning back $17.00 in option money. It has everything to do with current interests, decline in bird shooting(?), desire to be familiar with sidearms in a society which may become more unstable. The average age of the shooters at several handgun shoots was probably about 32 > 35. There are also many sporting clays shooters in the area.

When I go to a shoot I hope to see legal, "proper" targets thrown; whether 2 or 3 hole. Some clubs now throw floppy 45 yard targets, some don't have enough spin on them and don't fly steady. Some trap houses are over 3ft. tall as the club didn't want to deal with proper installation of auto-traps. Some clubs set targets which PEAK at 8 feet, if not 6 feet. Change? You have all the rules in place yet these are the current conditions at clubs in this locale. Some clubs no longer throw registered, so that's up to them. All the arguing about "Pros", how about some sincere efforts to standardize all ATA clubs first?

JT

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: Shootrman
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 09:45 AM ET
Website Address:

Anyone less then a 25 yarder that wins anything is called a sandbagged and don't deny it. We have al heard it. They had their one day in the sun and have to pay for it with others comments and jealousy. On the other hand, you have this elite group that are always in the winner circle, on the 27yard caps, they are the best. Everyone has a bad day, and sure maybe one fine day it's your turn and you beat their score. But on an every day basis, not gonna happen. They want to win as much as the next guy if not more, it's their living. So why would they want a professional class. To me no different. Everyone who is in this class is the real SANDBAGGERS

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: BIGDON
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 09:56 AM ET
Website Address:

357 you are smoking something other than gun powder. Please tell me the background of the last 35 great shooters. Outside of 5 or so most are working men with small/medium town ties and not the rich socialites you state.

What are the backgrounds of the "Big Dogs"?

Dawg I have been there and yes they are shooting but for how long. I have seen the array of guns(I wouldn't shoot most of them), shooting walmart 3 1/4 DE, kicking the living crap out of them and not hitting 50% of their targets. They are really going to be long for the sport. Besides a lot of them don't know how to safely handle the firearm they found in the closet. Why don't you just leave the trapshootes alone and go join the SC when you are not babysitting so your wife can shoot the real game of TRAP.

Don

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: ivanhoe
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 09:57 AM ET
Website Address:

Dawg

"What you might see is exactly what Trap lacks-younger shooters. No, I'm not talking about heavily subsidized 16 year olds but the 20-40 yo's!!"

Ask yourself another question does it take all day to shoot a round of SC if the answer is no add that to the mix. Most of the age bracket that you refer to have young families. Sporting allows them to be able to manage their recreational time and family time.

Handgun is another game that allows you to go to a shoot and shoot the course of fire get in your vehicle go home and take Mom and the kiddies out for what ever for the rest of the day.

Bob Lawless

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: oleolliedawg
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 10:08 AM ET
Website Address:

See BIGDON, you mustn't understand very much about business and turnover. Simply stated there's more of them to turnover than there are of us. We're a bunch of decrepit old farts who still believe the easier we make the targets the more we can compare ourselves to those great shooters of old. Sporting Clays has been eatin' our lunch for many years and it ain't gonna change.

By the way, I shoot very few Sporting Clays anymore. I still enjoy the "feel good" sport of Trapshooting more. It's great to attend a Trapshoot and feel good that at age 62 I'm one of the youngest in attendance!!

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: grnberetcj
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 10:13 AM ET
Website Address:

Most SC shooter's are the ones that found out early on that they were not good enough to compete in trap. So to bolster their ego, they've gravitated to a game where missed/lost targets are condoned.

Curt

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 10:20 AM ET
Website Address:

"Handgun is another game that allows you to go to a shoot and shoot the course of fire get in your vehicle go home and take Mom and the kiddies out for what ever for the rest of the day."

The 2700 matches take all day. Maybe that's one reason they're in decline.

Bigdumbdon, learn a little bit about American History and the sport of Trap before you open your yap. Trap was never a hillbilly sport.

How down-market are you that you think taking in an afternoon at Saratoga is being a rich socialite? They let anyone in, even you.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: Setterman
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 10:27 AM ET
Website Address:

I have to disagree as I shoot both registered games. SC guys like the variation in targets, and you can actually talk in between stations. More social. Sometimes you can't wait to get to the next station to see what that SOB target setter has in store for you. Sometimes you dread it.

As trap shooters we are bothered by any noise, inconvenience, or distraction. In SC, you deal with it because it is sometimes purposely put there.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: Git-ER-Done
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 12:01 PM ET
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Within the next ten years, the ATA will be losing the biggest percentage of their trapshooters. If we can't find something to make trapshooting interesting and equitable for the younger group, it will diminish and disappear slowly at first and then be gone almost overnight. The management that is now in place for the ATA is at best ineffective and ridiculous.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: oleolliedawg
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 12:02 PM ET
Website Address:

Oh BIGDON, your description of Sporting Clays shooters and their crappy guns is a prime example of snooty trapshooters and class warfare. When Trapshooting was in it's prime we all shot crappy guns and were glad to have 'em. It's no wonder why that kind of attitude drives away every potential new shooter at a trap club who shows up with his daddy's Stevens pump.

Shame on you!!

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: ivanhoe
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 12:12 PM ET
Website Address:

"learn a little bit about American History and the sport of Trap before you open your yap. Trap was never a hillbilly sport."

If it wasn't a Hillbilly sport who was A H Bogardus or William "Doc" Carver They may not have been full blown Hillbillies but they sure didn't come from what would be considered High Society backgrounds.

Bogardus was credited with strides in artificial targets such as Glass Balls he also invented the better Glass Ball launchers in the sport of trap shooting.

BTW ever heard of a shooter named Annie Oakley? Another High Society shooter in trapshooting history.

I think never a Hillbilly sport is an incorrect statement and maybe you need to "learn a little bit of American History" or at least the difference between Hillbillies and High Society.

Bob Lawless

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 02:32 PM ET
Website Address:

"It's no wonder why that kind of attitude drives away every potential new shooter at a trap club who shows up with his daddy's Stevens pump."

You know that, brother. I have some decent Remmys, but I'm almost embarrassed to bring them out on the rack. I was in one gun club and heard a shooter talk about a group of working-class trappies as "870 shooters," and it wasn't a compliment. I heard another shooter refer to all Berettas and Brownings as "junk." For less than $1,000 yards, I can get an AR-15 that can hit the bottom of a coffee can at 600 yards, using factory 55gr ammo, every shot. If a $1,000 shotgun isn't suitable for hitting clay birds at 50 yards, don't look for new guys to join the sport.

I can't believe the guys with Perazzis ever miss. They could miss for a whole lot cheaper.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 02:47 PM ET
Website Address:

Bob, let it go. Trap came from and was popularized in and around the cities. Look at the density of ranges, and look at all the ranges that closed. Look at how all the ranges from the glory days were constructed. They were all built to be quasi-country retreats for city people.

They may have done it in the sticks, but this was a city-folk sport.

"Debuting in 1900 at the Interstate Park in Queens, New York, the Grand American was originally a four-day tournament contested in June. For the next 20 plus years the Grand American was staged in cities such as Chicago, St. Louis and Columbus until it made its home in Vandalia, Ohio from 1923 until 2005."

From ATA.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: BIGDON
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 03:01 PM ET
Website Address:

357 AH- Now who is showing the world that he is a dumb ass. You want to start name calling have at it just shows your real mentality. Again try checking who the greats of our sport truly are. Check out Leo, Ricky, Harlan, Sean and many more and see where they came from.

Dawg you have got to quit hanging out at the wrong places. I was at the Indiana state shoot last week and there hundreds of shooters below 62 and I don't mean just below either. I was at MI the week before and the same thing. If you shoot well enough to get to the shoot offs you would see young adults and kids not old enough to drive shooting off with the top guns. One young man, might have 16, in particular was shooting off for Champion, IN non-resident with a score of 200, and he was not some rich kid, he came from the farm. A hillbilly as DA 357 calls them from the neighboring state of IL.

So while you two are setting home feeling sorry for whatever, mostly yourselves. I am going tomorrow to an old trap shoot, meet my cronies with their walkers and wheel chairs and shoot for some handicap money. Shoot 4 handicap events, 2 on Sat and 2 on Sun and the high total in each yardage group wins $1,000 and 2nd gets $500. 4 yardage groups so the 18 yarders will even be in the running. Let's see someone complain about this one, yes they are throwing some 16's and some doubles also.

Don

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 03:08 PM ET
Website Address:

"357 AH- Now who is showing the world that he is a dumb ass. You want to start name calling have at it just shows your real mentality. Again try checking who the greats of our sport truly are. Check out Leo, Ricky, Harlan, Sean and many more and see where they came from."

And what does that prove, Bigdumbdon? Lots of people come off the farms to play in city sports.

The overwhelming proportion of ranges are near cities, always have been. The overwhelming proportion of shooters are from near the cities, always have been. The overwhelming proportion of shots fired come from near the cities, always have been.

Ty Cobb came from Narrows, Georgia. That doesn't make Baseball a rural game. Baseball was born and raised in the cities.

Cities and city people rule America. Deal with it.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: dhip
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 03:27 PM ET
Website Address:

Ouch,Ouch Ouch,,,You guys are rough...

In Oct. afriend asked me to try trap,I said yes..First ouch,,took my Stevens pump out of closet even though he shoots a silver seitz,he said he could teach me to hit a bird.On the practice trap,fella walks up to us and asks if he can see my gun.I ob;ige,he asks for a shell,Places the butt on his HIP,,shouds pull,smokes the tatrget,hands gun back,syas ,nice shooting gun.

Meet a aquaintance with(God forbid,a Browning Citori) let's me mount it,wow, feels good compared to the Stevens..

2nd Ouch,,I make the mistake of going online,Cabelas has 3 citoris.That Sunday I make a trip up to just look(LMAO) Mount 2,2nd one feels good,look down,has an adjustable butt,I smile and say I'll take it.OOPs agter I get it home I realize somethings different about My Citori,,it's a Browning Sporting Clay Special 28" barrel.Freind tells me,just learn the gun,it will work

Ouch 3,,I'm learning at the age of 58,,and am one of the younger ones where I shoot.

Sorry if I insult some of you by shooting with my Sporting Clay Special,being retired,somewhat fixed income,I can't run out and buy a P-gun,,K-80,or Silver Seitrz at the drop of a hat.

Ouch 4,,guess my daddy was right years ago from what some say here,,,Trap is a Rich man's game,told me then to stay sith pheasants and rabbits.But,the places where thewy were back then are housing developements now,So,,as some here seem to feel,I'll use my ill equipped gun,by home boy attitude and go shoot some birds tonight for meat.I'm going to have FUN,regardless of what you'all say.OH,and I'm gong to encourage any youngin,or over the hill guy who show's interest to come on down,let's have fun ands let the birds break where they will...

Doug H.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: ivanhoe
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 03:32 PM ET
Website Address:

"Bob, let it go." Typical any one that has an opinion that differs from your or treats you the way you treat others they need to let it go.

"Please tell me the background of the last 35 great shooters. Outside of 5 or so most are working men with small/medium town ties and not the rich socialites you state."

So tell us how many of the shooter live in the city today not in history. Don made only one reference to club location. Which was BTW today not 50 or 100 years ago.

"Trap is a more small town country boy, let's go hunting(not preserves) type and it has been hit by the economy harder."

Do you know the difference between "IS" and "WAS" it certainly doesn't appear so. Of course we can trust you to dredge up the clubs of the past you know the ones that don't pertain to the to comments made. The one that aren't here any longer.

BTW does it help your ego to say "From ATA." Curious because it sure doesn't impress me.

Bob Lawless

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: spitter
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 04:18 PM ET
Website Address:

Why is there so much resistance to acknowledging there are professional trapshooters in the first place?! The question of whether professionals shoot within our ranks is one question that incites so much bitter reparte...

I would also question how anyone who unabashedly promotes a fee for services, such as instruction, could deny they are in "business" with a straight face...

That said, gentlemen and lady shooters such as Campbell, Harrison, Ross, Stafford, Ohye, etc... whether or not they can make a living at trapshooting full time is irrelevant, the fact remains they make a living (in whole or in part) from promotion of their expertise in shooting sports - and I purposely exclude gambling monies as any shooter may access through "options".

Any "pro", not limited only to those mentioned above, who participates fairly, deserves to be at the top of the leader boards, and they deserve to win everything they win. To repeatedly deny that pros compete in amateur trapshooting is incredulous.

Maybe a better analogy is Poker... pros compete against "dead money" at every tournament, but to suggest that Helmuth, Brunson, Negrano and others aren't pros is laughable.

Oops, my pixies are beginninng to melt in all this heat!

regards all,

Jay

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: ivanhoe
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 04:32 PM ET
Website Address:

Jay and this affects shooting How???? If it doesn't what impact does it have on other shooters or all shooter? If none why does it need to become an issue?

Bob Lawless

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 04:48 PM ET
Website Address:

Bob, putting your head in the sand isn't going to make the issue go away. I opened this thread with an innocuous question and was met with a fusillade of resistance to merely answering the question. The resistance told me more than the answers.

There's a big issue here that needs to be addressed.

I don't see what's wrong with having a pro circuit. If the top guys are pros, it might bring some more attention and money to the sport. I don't see how it hurts to have pros enter open events. Everyone will know there's a pro in the field, but so what?

The rules from other series are posted above. Most could be directly applied to Trap.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: ivanhoe
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 05:50 PM ET
Website Address:

OK lets play your game just because you like to make statements that you don't ever answer questions about. I ask questions because I don't see thing the same as everyone else does. So when I don't understand what is meant or if I am not sure what someone means when they say something. I ask questions. With that being said tell me.

"There's a big issue here that needs to be addressed."

Can you explain to me what that issue is. Every one of the other "series" as you call them call for the participants to "Join". They are not and can not be required to become a Pro without ramifications to the rest of the association.

"I don't see what's wrong with having a pro circuit. If the top guys are pros, it might bring some more attention and money to the sport."

I don't see anything wrong with it either. I just don't want to know that those top guys that are Pro as you call them want to join. Where will it leave the pro division if they don't??? What if you have shooters that aren't top guys that want to be Pros then what?

This isn't resistance these are questions that need to be asked and answered. There are many more that need to be looked at. Another I can think of is where is the sponsorship money going to come from? Donation? From who?

You keep saying the same thing over and over and you offer no answers and as you proved to me earlier today in most cases you don't want to answer any question. Yet you feel that everyone should just jump on the bandwagon. Has anyone asked the top guys how they feel about being Pros and see what they have to say?????? The decisions you make and other make on the matter effects them more than anyone else. Yet I am getting no feedback from that sector of the shooters. So how does it qualify us to decide for them????

Bob Lawless

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: 22hornet
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 06:49 PM ET
Website Address:

I like Tom Petty's music and lawn bowling.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: BIGDON
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 07:19 PM ET
Website Address:

357AH - Let me close in saying to you = "You don't know shit" and you don't know where trapshooters come from and where the targets are thrown. Now Mr. Expert just how many ATA targets have you registered, do you actually shoot or just shoot your mouth.

Don

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 09:26 PM ET
Website Address:

Bigdumbdon, you've got a long way to go, sonny, before you can talk to me about firearms, demographics and American history.

Sooner or later, we'll get a resolution to this pro question.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: BigM-Perazzi
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 09:29 PM ET
Website Address:

We already have. Only you give a shit.... the rest of Us have no real issues with it... Maybe you just need to do a poll to see the real interest...or lack therof..

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 09:47 PM ET
Website Address:

Bob: “Can you explain to me what that issue is?” Why a few here get very defensive at the suggestion that there needs to be a pro class.

“Every one of the other "series" as you call them call for the participants to "Join". They are not and can not be required to become a Pro without ramifications to the rest of the association.”

You’re going at it backwards. Yes, the pro league requires joining, but the amateur league will nonetheless kick someone out who has achieved pro status, regardless of whether the pro league accepts the participant.

“I don't see anything wrong with it either. I just don't want to know that those top guys that are Pro as you call them want to join.”

It doesn’t matter if they want to join. What matters is whether they’ve achieved a status that makes them no longer amateurs. I suspect this level will be achieved after moneys won or certain rankings attained over a series of money-paying tournaments.

“Where will it leave the pro division if they don't??? What if you have shooters that aren't top guys that want to be Pros then what?”

The pro guys will have to shoot as pros in any tournament. As for guys who want their pro card but don’t have the skill to get one, this striving occurs, all the time, in pro sports. Getting your pro card is a lifetime achievement for many golfers. They can take jobs as club pros with the card in hand. A ranking amateur status is worth far less.

“This isn't resistance these are questions that need to be asked and answered.”

Of course. These are good questions you’re asking.

“There are many more that need to be looked at. Another I can think of is where is the sponsorship money going to come from? Donation? From who?”

Perazzi, Remington, One-A-Day, Mephisto Shoes, etc. Get the marketing department working on this. I see all sorts of silly sonsabitches’ faces plastered all over fishing poles, bass boats and outboard motors. There’s no reason you can’t get a marketing contract, and your mug could be at the top of the Gander Mountain display trying to pitch me STS shells.

“Has anyone asked the top guys how they feel about being Pros and see what they have to say??????”

Does it matter? If they’re considered “pros,” and forced to register as pros, what are they going to do, retire? Fine. New pros will come along.

“The decisions you make and other make on the matter effects them more than anyone else. Yet I am getting no feedback from that sector of the shooters. So how does it qualify us to decide for them????”

Go back to the beginning. The question is why there are pros in the “Amateur” Trapshooting Association. Once we’ve established that there are pros in an amateur league, we either need to get the pros their own division or change the name of the association.

The bottom line is that you can’t have pros calling themselves amateurs. Once we get the pro division going, there will be some grumbling from the stubborn old-timers, but time will overcome their objections and clear out the dissenters. It’s better for amateur sport not to have pros lurking in the amateur ranks, and it’s a great marketing opportunity to have a full-on pro division, ready to accept and exploit all sponsorship and media opportunities.

I wouldn’t mind seeing the sport get so big that there's pari-mutuel Trap at a range behind the horse track.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: oleolliedawg
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 10:03 PM ET
Website Address:

Like BIGDON says, 15 year old kids breaking 200's with a minimum of experience while he's afraid to move the angles a few degrees wider. No wonder they hit 18 and are so bored with Trap they gravitate to Sporting Clays and other far more challenging sports!!

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 10:04 PM ET
Website Address:

Yeah, BigM, but your group only has another 15 years, at most, in the sport. This sport may see a mass departure of participants in just five years. At every trap range, I hear a running tale of health maladies.

What happens to this sport when you and your cronies are gone?

40 years ago, Trap was flush with shooters, but that generation didn't grow the sport. They thought things were just fine the way they had them, so they didn't want to change a thing.

Well, by any business model, that stubbornness was a disaster. It might be time for your group to admit you're the problem.

Just once, I wish I'd visit a trap range that didn't close fields, over the years. All I hear about is the "way things used to be," as I see the yellowed photos of the glory days, many of which occurred before I was born.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: ivanhoe
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 10:44 PM ET
Website Address:

"I wouldn’t mind seeing the sport get so big that there's pari-mutuel Trap at a range behind the horse track."

Well you have already lost my vote. You lost it with one response to one of my questions.

"You’re going at it backwards. Yes, the pro league requires joining, but the amateur league will nonetheless kick someone out who has achieved pro status, regardless of whether the pro league accepts the participant."

That is an improper statement at least it is in other sports that have pro divisions. As an example I knew several Archers that joined the NFAA pro division after several season of shooting they didn't want to be Pros it wasn't worth the price of dues. They applied for regular membership again the association said no, they soon found out that legally they couldn't refuse the membership.

You posted this link

http://www.upatour.com/how-to-be-a-professional-pool-player-faq.php

On that website it says

How do I become a Professional Pool Player?

The UPA has worked very hard to create a clear cut path for anyone who wants to compete on a professional level. Simply join the UPA and begin your journey of attaining your Official U.S. Professional Ranking.

What do I do after I join?

It’s easy, simply pick/choose from our selection of Recognized events, compete, and help us keep track of your progress.

Can anyone join the Touring Pro Program?

Yes. Whether you want to actually join the circuit or simply want to become a supporting Member of our Association we welcome you to

So you think that once you become a Pro member that they own you they have the right to tell you what you can and can't do where and when you can shoot. Well those question and answers from a website you posted don't appear to be telling the story very truthfully now do they.

I will not have any part of forcing great shooters out of this game under the giuse that they are Pros just to make it easyier for you to win. No not for the likes of you and anyone that thinks as you do.

If Pro Basketball and Hockey players just to name acouple of sports can go to the Olympics which is Amateur sports. Then people like you have no right to even suggest that the Best Trap Shooters can be put out of the game the way you are suggesting.

I want to see more concrete but not to put anyone out of the game or give other shooter an easier way to win. FORGET IT.

I have to leave now or I will say something that might get me banned from this site. You totally disgust me an if the rest that read your crap aren't disgusted they should be.

Bob Lawless

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: Joe Smoke
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 10:45 PM ET
Website Address:

Big Don- Many times the 4 letter words (way back in this thread, sorry, been working) have been a part of my post-shot routine. But in working on a catch -phrase to help me keep concentration, after several clinics this year, I have added several syllables to both ends of the 4 letter words and have found it helps immensely. Adds to the sophistication level of the farm boy dialect, and although I still find a way to miss the target, I feel much better about it. Sometimes I can even mutter the 5 syllable catch phrase before the shot passes low and to the left of the target, which is a step in the right direction of target recognition and muscle memory. If I continue to improve on the mental aspects, I will turn pro in 2011. If we can squad together again sometime, I would be happy to share my notes with you. As Yogi said, half of this game is 90% mental.

Can't we all just get along????

Joe

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 11:19 PM ET
Website Address:

"So you think that once you become a Pro member that they own you they have the right to tell you what you can and can't do where and when you can shoot."

Come on, Bob. You're smarter and more honest than this. That's one heckuva dishonest statement you made.

"Well those question and answers from a website you posted don't appear to be telling the story very truthfully now do they."

Bob, I posted a lot of sites that illustrate different organizations' approaches to classifying professional status. All those sports break pros from amateurs, which is the purpose for which they were cited. I didn't write their rule books.

"I will not have any part of forcing great shooters out of this game under the giuse that they are Pros just to make it easyier for you to win. No not for the likes of you and anyone that thinks as you do."

Bob, buddy, calm down. You're getting hysterical and spouting nonsense. We'll get this pro thing sorted out.

"If Pro Basketball and Hockey players just to name acouple of sports can go to the Olympics which is Amateur sports."

If Kobe Bryant plays in the Olympics, it's not amateur sports, any more. Seriously, Bob. This is obvious.

"Then people like you have no right to even suggest that the Best Trap Shooters can be put out of the game the way you are suggesting."

Well, I won't just stand by and watch you tear down the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA! Gentlemen!

Really, Bob, a strained straw man is what your down to?

"I want to see more concrete but not to put anyone out of the game or give other shooter an easier way to win. FORGET IT.

I have to leave now or I will say something that might get me banned from this site. You totally disgust me an if the rest that read your crap aren't disgusted they should be.

Bob Lawless" Calm down, Bob. You're being hysterical, and you're not making any sense. Come back when you've cooled off and you can discuss this calmly.

In the end, you can't duck, dodge, obscure or excuse the fact that pros don't belong in an amateur association. There's no way around that, and everyone knows it. I've got you backed into a corner on that, so you're flailing wildly, hoping to throw up enough smoke to take everyone's eye off the ball.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: matttrapn
Date: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 - 11:29 PM ET
Website Address:

Well, Big Don and Setterman......

I see there is far too much waxing and pontificating going on here in "some" of the posters. Oh, heck, I dont have have a clue what I just typed...... Just making light.

Matt Nicol

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: trapshooteraa27aa
Date: Fri, Jul 16, 2010 - 01:04 AM ET
Website Address:

Hack, Cough, Burp, spit..Um uh what really makes me mad is it took me almost 11 beers to read this crap. Burp gotta get another beer..keep typing useless crap im bored. Chris

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: BIGDON
Date: Fri, Jul 16, 2010 - 06:32 AM ET
Website Address:

Dawg; put them in any damn hole you want and I will still shoot them and so will my fellow country friends (hillbillies according to the city slicker rectum cavity).

Don

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: dhip
Date: Fri, Jul 16, 2010 - 07:04 AM ET
Website Address:

I'm new to the sport.I have a pair of Mephisto shoes,,does that make me a PRO? LMAO

Doug H.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Fri, Jul 16, 2010 - 08:39 AM ET
Website Address:

Bigdumbdon, we all know you'd wilt if you had to shoot in a pro event. You can't handle the city-style pressure. That's why you're desperately trying to keep a pro division from emerging.

How is it that you got into Trap, in the first place, living in the country where Trap is only rarely found? Never mind. I really don't care how you got into this city sport. Probably just like everyone else from the country, aping what they see the city people do. That never goes the other direction, by the way.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: BIGDON
Date: Fri, Jul 16, 2010 - 02:18 PM ET
Website Address:

Come on you can do better than that now show everybody how stupid you really are. Must be you are not to proud of how many ATA targets you have shot at. Come on put your skirt on and show us how bad and manly you really are.

Oh by the way I lived in the city for 15 years. Couldn't wait to get out, yes it was full of idiots like you.

Don

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Fri, Jul 16, 2010 - 03:38 PM ET
Website Address:

"Come on you can do better than that now show everybody how stupid you really are."

However dumb I am, I've still got plenty of mental horsepower in reserve to knock you around this park.

"Must be you are not to proud of how many ATA targets you have shot at. Come on put your skirt on and show us how bad and manly you really are."

And that will prove that there are not pros in the ATA? Do you proofread any of this dreck before you post? Worse, does your babbling make sense to you?

Further, what's wrong with wearing a skirt?

"Oh by the way I lived in the city for 15 years. Couldn't wait to get out, yes it was full of idiots like you."

Ahh, so that's where you learned Trap.

You must have been the guy I had to honk at for 15 years.

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: ivanhoe
Date: Fri, Jul 16, 2010 - 06:36 PM ET
Website Address:

"However dumb I am, I've still got plenty of mental horsepower in reserve to knock you around this park."

That is what this is really about it has nothing to do with Pros or anything about trap. Its all how smart you think you are. You just come here to cause trouble an get everyone that actually cares about shooting trap in petty arguments.

Do us all a favor dry up and blow away.

Bob Lawless

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: grnberetcj
Date: Fri, Jul 16, 2010 - 06:46 PM ET
Website Address:

And just what do you expect from a urinal cake muncher that thinks the ACLU is a fine organization?

Don't feed into the BS.....if ignored these types will seek a different venue more akin to their ilk!

Curt

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Subject: Are There Professional Trapshooters?
From: smoking357
Date: Sat, Jul 17, 2010 - 11:56 PM ET
Website Address:

"And just what do you expect from a urinal cake muncher that thinks the ACLU is a fine organization?"

Because I stand up for freedom, I can't tell professionals from amateurs?

Is this really how you think? Please find another hobby.

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