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Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?

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Posted By Posted Date/Time
Barrelbulge (Pa.) 10-Sep-10 - 05:14 PM ET
PerazziBigBore 10-Sep-10 - 04:41 PM ET
wlc 27-Aug-10 - 10:07 AM ET
PerazziBigBore 26-Aug-10 - 08:40 PM ET
whiz white 26-Aug-10 - 02:32 PM ET
PerazziBigBore 26-Aug-10 - 08:58 AM ET
sliverbulletexpress 25-Aug-10 - 03:09 PM ET
kgdunford 25-Aug-10 - 02:40 PM ET
PerazziBigBore 25-Aug-10 - 12:59 PM ET
whiz white 15-May-10 - 11:18 PM ET
Sportshot 15-May-10 - 10:33 PM ET
PerazziBigBore 15-May-10 - 07:48 PM ET
whiz white 15-May-10 - 06:00 PM ET
PerazziBigBore 15-May-10 - 05:32 PM ET
whiz white 15-May-10 - 05:16 PM ET
PerazziBigBore 15-May-10 - 05:09 PM ET
PerazziBigBore 15-May-10 - 04:54 PM ET
Sportshot 15-May-10 - 03:58 PM ET
vdt 15-May-10 - 03:54 PM ET
Steve W 15-May-10 - 03:44 PM ET
Sportshot 15-May-10 - 03:16 PM ET
BigM-Perazzi 15-May-10 - 02:17 PM ET
PerazziBigBore 15-May-10 - 12:57 PM ET
PerazziBigBore 15-May-10 - 12:50 PM ET
PerazziBigBore 15-May-10 - 12:33 PM ET
BigM-Perazzi 15-May-10 - 11:44 AM ET
BigM-Perazzi 15-May-10 - 11:44 AM ET
Sportshot 15-May-10 - 10:41 AM ET
BigM-Perazzi 15-May-10 - 10:26 AM ET
BigM-Perazzi 15-May-10 - 10:26 AM ET
JACK 15-May-10 - 10:12 AM ET
Neil Winston 15-May-10 - 09:34 AM ET
PerazziBigBore 15-May-10 - 09:28 AM ET
Sportshot 15-May-10 - 09:12 AM ET


Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: Barrelbulge (Pa.)
Date: Fri, Sep 10, 2010 - 05:14 PM ET
Website Address:

I recently had this exact same problem with a recently rebuilt TMX. The smith told me it would wear in or, he could shave(or grind) a little more off because something was not at the proper angle. This would also cause the lever to become a little more centered. I told him I wanted the fix since it was not originally working that way. The sticking lever was very irritating, at times I had to force the lever. The guy did take it apart and make the repair good after I pushed the issue. My TMX will go to Giaccomo or some other Perazzi friendly smith if it needs repaired again. Sorry to hear that you had the same problem. My smith was in SW pa. Bulge.

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: PerazziBigBore
Date: Fri, Sep 10, 2010 - 04:41 PM ET
Website Address:

The 2 flats on the mono-block that rest on the receiver.. pressure should be on the top rear of the barrels.. and over the hinge pin.. If you have pressure over the entire length of the flat.. some sticking can result..

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: wlc
Date: Fri, Aug 27, 2010 - 10:07 AM ET
Website Address:

Sometimes you can play with the water table on the mono-block and save the receiver..

What is the water table?

Thanks

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: PerazziBigBore
Date: Thu, Aug 26, 2010 - 08:40 PM ET
Website Address:

How about action locking bolt..???

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: whiz white
Date: Thu, Aug 26, 2010 - 02:32 PM ET
Website Address: http://www.swsupply.com

Actually, Perazzi calls them "Action Bolt."

WW

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: PerazziBigBore
Date: Thu, Aug 26, 2010 - 08:58 AM ET
Website Address:

silverbullet.. I'd like to hear more about that 6 o'clock and tight wood.. with the locking piece out of place.. With no locking piece in the gun.. at all.. If you get to 6 o'clock with a good locking bolt that's not worn out..Only a broken top lever can put you at 6 o'clock with the barrel and forend installed.. When we fit locking bolts.. it's done with only the top lever in place..and the barrel on the receiver.. As we get closer.. the top lever return spring is added.. The little triangular locking piece is installed after everything else is finished and engagement patterns are tested..

I did find out this year.. a really hard stone to polish the ears and bolt can produce an almost broken in feel we all want. Shooters forget.. that worn hingepins can cause that sticking feeling..and all the bolts and grease in the world can't fix that.. You'll need new hinge pins..or live with the problem..Sometimes you can play with the water table on the mono-block and save the receiver.. but you're getting close to the end of useful life of the receiver unless you bite the bullet and fix the hinge pins..

There is a time.. in the life of an older Perazzi that you do what you can do.. and use it as a back up gun..or loaner.. Usually.. after many hundreds of thousands of rounds.. it's time for easy street.. Out of all the guns I saw at the GRAND this year..only 1 was at that point.. One gun was there with its original barrel.. but a late model barrel.. in much better shape yielded a much better fit on the pivots and probably good for another 200,000 rounds or more if properly cleaned and lubed..

I've found that if the contact points are printing correctly.. and angles are correct on the ears and locking bolt..there is no sticking.. It's a short checklist.. but it takes time.. Now.. the critical news.. If you play with the water table to much.. your vertical POI can be thrown off.. Not by a whole bunch..but enough to think about from the 27..if you've been breaking targets with the fringe of your pattern..

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: sliverbulletexpress
Date: Wed, Aug 25, 2010 - 03:09 PM ET
Website Address:

I no it sounds crazy but I had one that did the same thing and it was the stock had too much clearance on the right side by that triangle shaped part that locks the lever to the right when you open it. I over tightened the stock bolt a little and that was just enough that the triangle shaped part would get out of place. I don't understand how that would allow the lever go to 6 but it would.

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: kgdunford
Date: Wed, Aug 25, 2010 - 02:40 PM ET
Website Address:

Not sure what you had done to the gun, but everytime I've had a locking bolt replaced in my Perazzi's over the years they where a little "sticky" for a while. I was always told it was the angles of the bolt and barrel ears that forms a slite bite, but if it's to the point where you have to push that hard the wrong angle may have been cut on the new locking bolt.

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: PerazziBigBore
Date: Wed, Aug 25, 2010 - 12:59 PM ET
Website Address:

This year at the GRAND.. I kept a notebook of problems we say.. and what was the correct solution.. In the area that this question about sticking top levers.. We had quite an assortment of causes and fixed... First.. we say 5 broken top levers.. That puts it at 6 o'cock.. or beyond.. One on a TM-1 4 on MX series..

Then we had a few angles on the barrel ears at the wrong angle as well as locking bolts not fitted to the correct angle of engagement.. Now.. not every gun is 7 degrees.. some wear differently..As long as its not more than 7 degrees.. you'll probably be OK.. Some ears wear almost flat..and a little more angle needs to be cut..if there is enough meat left..

On many barrels..Dan just welded up the ears..and recut them to restart with a #09 locking bolt..Just as they come from the factory.. Literally starting as new.. Most of the time.. the problem went away.. A few times.. just a dab of grease on the new bolt then allowed it to set smoothly and no further issues were found..

Biggest thing I learned is sometimes.. especially when a barrel was changed..it's not properly fitted.. There is up pressure on the mono-block from the rear.. and not over the hinge pins where it should be..Until properly fitted.. it will never be right.. A dab of Prussian blue will tell the whole story..

Top levers and locking bolts are not a difficult thing to change.. but on older guns..as wear of many parts comes into play.. ONLY a few of the many so called Perazzi Gunsmiths really know what they are doing.. A new gun..fine.. but an old one with a myrad of changes demands a true expert.. I'm still learning.. Dan Locker at Giacomo I'd put up against any in the WORLD.. I think that much of his ability.. When you begin to realize that Dan see's as many gun at the GRAND.. as many Perazzi gunsmith see in a year or more.. You'll quickly understand.. nothing beats experience..

Hopefully I'll see you at the GRAND next year. My notebook will eagarly be waiting more information. Respectfully.. Mike

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: whiz white
Date: Sat, May 15, 2010 - 11:18 PM ET
Website Address: http://www.swsupply.com

I've sold the replacement single spring setups to several shooters with the dual spring and have not heard one complaint.

I get a call once in a while about, "How do I get that screw to un-screw out the back of the receiver?" I cringe and say that is NOT a screw, it's an alignment mark, AND is used to secure the plug (guide) alignment into its resting place with the correct geometry when reinsalling the lever, guide and coil spring.

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: Sportshot
Date: Sat, May 15, 2010 - 10:33 PM ET
Website Address:

pretty good outcome.

I just spoke to PBB and everything that was mud is now crystal clear. A very knowledgable and interesting gentleman, with a cool New Orlean's accent.

Thanks Mike!

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: PerazziBigBore
Date: Sat, May 15, 2010 - 07:48 PM ET
Website Address:

The dual coil spring assemblies are now changed to the new style.. a simple drop in upgrade...and the top lever return spring lasts much longer...

Neil.. This spring plunger assembly is what powers the top lever to close..and try to return to center.. The wedge fit on the end of the barrel ears and locking bolt mesh..stopping the top lever from going any farther forward.. As the parts wear.. the top lever finally gets to center..and a new locking bolt is installed..repeating the process until there is not enough metal on the barrel ears.. Then the barrel ears are welded up..and reground..and the whole process starts over again..

A top lever to center is only 2 options.. locking bolt/barrel ears worn.. or top lever cam pin broke.. There is no 3rd option.. Now.. if one sets up a new locking bolt for 1 barrel of a combo.. The unfitted barrel will probably not just drop on.. The ears will need to be welded up.. and fitted to the locking bolt..

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: whiz white
Date: Sat, May 15, 2010 - 06:00 PM ET
Website Address: http://www.swsupply.com

With regard to the Top Lever Spring, there are several different designs and several different sizes.

Hopefully, whomever did the "restore" used the correct replacement parts.

Take a photo of the parts you received back so we can see what was replaced.

The angle on the Action Block (Perazzi part# 104) is or should be ~7º. If the restorer did not maintain this angle during fitting, or if the angle of the cuts in the rear of the barrel's monoblock (hopefully not touched) were altered, then you could also have some issues. I hope like hell the barrel was not touched. I've seen some the have been re-welded

I had an MX3 in here recently that had the notches in the rear of the barrel altered to fit the Action Block, HOWEVER, whoever did it, didn't alter the O/U barrel. Consequently, the Action Block worked in the single, but not the O/U.

I returned it to the gunsmith in the NW and said I was not interested in fixing this really badly screwed-up barrel. I didn't want to own this problem, nor wanted to be a part of the problem's continuation. Could this be the MX3?

The "gunsmith" who did the initial repairs should NOT have touched the gun in the first place. A Perazzi is a fine piece of craftsmanship, and an amateur repairer is NOT what you want. It reminds me of the guy shooting the $15,000 MX2000, who hesitates in buying a couple of $30 repair parts. I just don't understand it.

There exists a dual-coil spring set-up which I do not have pictured.

Whiz

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: PerazziBigBore
Date: Sat, May 15, 2010 - 05:32 PM ET
Website Address:

Was this a combo set..??? and were both barrels fitted??? if it was??? As Whiz said.. if only one was fitted..and not the O/U.. You'll need to call me... Mike

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: whiz white
Date: Sat, May 15, 2010 - 05:16 PM ET
Website Address: http://www.swsupply.com

With regard to the Top Lever Spring, there are several different designs and several different sizes.

Hopefully, whomever did the "restore" used the correct replacement parts.

Take a photo of the parts you received back so we can see what was replaced.

The angle on the Action Block (Perazzi part# 104) is or should be 7º. If the restorer did not maintain this angle, or if the angle of the cuts in the rear of the barrel's monoblock (hopefully not touched) differ, then you could also have some issues.

I had an MX3 in here recently that had the notches in the rear of the barrel altered to fit the Action Block, HOWEVER, whoever did it, didn't alter the O/U barrel. Consequently, the Action Block worked in the single, but not the O/U.

I returned it to the gunsmith in the NW

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: PerazziBigBore
Date: Sat, May 15, 2010 - 05:09 PM ET
Website Address:

I use to call them locking blocks.. but the factory.. and everyone else called them locking bolts... I understand the confusion.. It sounds like the locking bolt was changed.. The only thing.. from what you are describing to me.. sounds like the top lever.. The cam pin might have sheered off..How???? Not a clue.. but then.. only the burrs are pulling the locking bolt in and out..and probably not locking up solid.. I wish you lived closer.. It's a simple fix.. but you'll need either a welder and machine skills.. or another top lever..

I'd remove the barrel..and press the top lever release button.. at 9 o'clock on the receiver face.. The top lever should go to center..and the locking bolt should come to full forward position.. Holding the top lever from moving.. use a wooden dowel stick or brass punch to push the locking bolt back.. If it goes back..and the top lever does not move.. the cam pin on the top lever has sheared..

In any event.. the top lever needs to come out..to check it.. and the locking bolt..

Call me.. Mike

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: PerazziBigBore
Date: Sat, May 15, 2010 - 04:54 PM ET
Website Address:

Sportshot.. If you have a computer with a camera.. If you SKYPE... I can take a look at it.. and maybe offer some thoughts.. Look me up on Skype.. or send me a E-mail..and I'll get back to you after work... Send me your phone number..

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: Sportshot
Date: Sat, May 15, 2010 - 03:58 PM ET
Website Address:

yes, Steve, I was like 99% sure I knew what the locking bolt was, and that was one of the replaced parts, it just seems wierd that part is called a locking bolt, instead of a locking plate or something.

I am not very mechanically-minded.

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: vdt
Date: Sat, May 15, 2010 - 03:54 PM ET
Website Address:

check you private messages

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: Steve W
Date: Sat, May 15, 2010 - 03:44 PM ET
Website Address:

Sportshot, the locking bolt is a "H" shape piece of metal.

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: Sportshot
Date: Sat, May 15, 2010 - 03:16 PM ET
Website Address:

Something went wrong,

when I first got it there was no problem, the lever was way over to the right, I received an envelope of old parts that had been replaced, one of which was that locking bolt you are talking about,... I think...

And then within a very short period of usage, I'd say two or three rounds, I noticed the lever sticking, and it has fallen back towards the center of the tang and not over to the right like it was at first, so obviously something about the repair failed.

I am DEFINATELY not throwing a stone at the vendor, and I'm not saying anything about who, what, where,.... I just really need my gun fixed, pronto. I will be shooting 100 doubles with it tomorrow, and on and on.....

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: BigM-Perazzi
Date: Sat, May 15, 2010 - 02:17 PM ET
Website Address:

Pbb not disagreeing but a little confused on why a gun that's been restored would have these issues.

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: PerazziBigBore
Date: Sat, May 15, 2010 - 12:57 PM ET
Website Address:

For those of you who have not seen this before.. It's wear on the barrel ears.. where the locking bolt engages.. and or the locking bolt.. The "sticking" is 2 surfaces..NOT on an angle.. but worn flat.. When both angles are correct..the tiniest movement seperates the two.. and the gun opens smoothly..

Also.. the pin engagement in the locking bolt could have a burr on it.. OR be bent..causing a bind in the rearward movement of the locking bolt..

the fact the barrel/receiver fit is loose.. further adds to my thoughts of ear/bolt problem..

When fitting a locking bolt..you don't install the top lever return spring till the very last.. The fitting is done with a triggerless receiver..and the barrel.. The top lever should be smooth till the end..in its complete arch..

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: PerazziBigBore
Date: Sat, May 15, 2010 - 12:50 PM ET
Website Address:

Sportshot.. You're welcome to send me your phone number.. I'll call you when I get a break.. or later tonight.. All Good.. Mike

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: PerazziBigBore
Date: Sat, May 15, 2010 - 12:33 PM ET
Website Address:

There is no way for a top lever to get to 6 oclock if the locking bolt is not worn.. With no top lever return spring..or housing.. 6 o'clock is 6 o'clock..

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: BigM-Perazzi
Date: Sat, May 15, 2010 - 11:44 AM ET
Website Address:

Message Deleted


Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: BigM-Perazzi
Date: Sat, May 15, 2010 - 11:44 AM ET
Website Address:

Its not rocket science to pull it out but it does take some care. So.eone could talk you thru it. Might be as Neil says.

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: Sportshot
Date: Sat, May 15, 2010 - 10:41 AM ET
Website Address:

Thanks, .....

I was hoping this was a minor issue, - something I could fix myself. I've tried opening and closing the gun dozens of times in addition to the shooting I've done. No change,... no improvement...

I hate to send this off for repair again because I NEED it for shooting, and it has been gone all winter for the restoration. But you're right, this lever is going to break it I don't get it fixed soon.

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: BigM-Perazzi
Date: Sat, May 15, 2010 - 10:26 AM ET
Website Address:

Message Deleted


Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: BigM-Perazzi
Date: Sat, May 15, 2010 - 10:26 AM ET
Website Address:

If you did not have this problem before the restoration project I'd suggest discussing it with the restorers. It probably required a complete teardown and the should have. Noticed this problem.

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: JACK
Date: Sat, May 15, 2010 - 10:12 AM ET
Website Address:

Message Deleted


Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: Neil Winston
Date: Sat, May 15, 2010 - 09:34 AM ET
Website Address:

Maybe the spring/plunger assembly which tells the gun is it's closed is broken/bound up/ sideways (it happens!) or otherwise screwed up. If left like that, you will harm the top-lever too and that's going to cost some lira to replace.

Neil

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: PerazziBigBore
Date: Sat, May 15, 2010 - 09:28 AM ET
Website Address:

Hi Friend.. You need a locking bolt.. and possibly the top lever cam pin needs to be polished.

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Subject: Perazzi - sticky MX3 top lever, the cause?
From: Sportshot
Date: Sat, May 15, 2010 - 09:12 AM ET
Website Address:

I recently got my MX3 back from a restoration project. The finish is very nice. I did expect the barrel-to-receiver fit to be better, but maybe that looseness is typical of the MX-3 models generally.

My problem is the top lever,

When I close the gun the lever goes to slightly right of center,... and to open the gun requires a very hard and aggressive push. Basically, it's "stuck" and I have to shove it hard to open the gun. (I push with my thumb because I'm left handed verses the way most shooters pull with their right thumb).

I am seriously worried about breaking this lever. It is not a break-in issue, (I suppose) because I've shot the gun approaching 200-300 rounds so far. No change in the lever.

Suggestions?

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