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Posted By Posted Date/Time
GBatch_25 05-Jun-13 - 05:27 PM ET
Bruce Specht 05-Jun-13 - 05:51 PM ET
Calkidd 05-Jun-13 - 06:36 PM ET
GBatch_25 05-Jun-13 - 07:01 PM ET
mag410 05-Jun-13 - 07:49 PM ET
esoxhunter 05-Jun-13 - 08:31 PM ET
spitter 05-Jun-13 - 08:58 PM ET
GN7777777 05-Jun-13 - 09:08 PM ET
trapwife 06-Jun-13 - 08:47 AM ET
Lurefish 06-Jun-13 - 08:55 AM ET
eightbore 06-Jun-13 - 09:14 AM ET
himark 06-Jun-13 - 09:20 AM ET
WPT 06-Jun-13 - 09:20 AM ET
Wolfman 06-Jun-13 - 09:41 AM ET
spitter 06-Jun-13 - 09:47 AM ET
Joe Potosky 06-Jun-13 - 09:56 AM ET
bigdogtx 06-Jun-13 - 10:17 AM ET
Joe Potosky 06-Jun-13 - 10:22 AM ET
spitter 06-Jun-13 - 10:24 AM ET
GN7777777 06-Jun-13 - 10:29 AM ET
himark 06-Jun-13 - 10:30 AM ET
Oregunner 06-Jun-13 - 10:41 AM ET
Fooch 06-Jun-13 - 10:42 AM ET
GN7777777 06-Jun-13 - 10:45 AM ET
himark 06-Jun-13 - 10:53 AM ET
Oregunner 06-Jun-13 - 11:01 AM ET
dickgtax 06-Jun-13 - 11:19 AM ET
joe kuhn 06-Jun-13 - 11:23 AM ET
skeezix 06-Jun-13 - 11:29 AM ET
trapwife 06-Jun-13 - 11:35 AM ET
Stl Flyn 06-Jun-13 - 12:02 PM ET
FredB 06-Jun-13 - 01:30 PM ET
oleolliedawg 06-Jun-13 - 01:37 PM ET
CalvinMD 06-Jun-13 - 01:58 PM ET
WPT 06-Jun-13 - 02:00 PM ET
fishguts 06-Jun-13 - 03:53 PM ET
Stl Flyn 06-Jun-13 - 04:20 PM ET
DoubleAuto 06-Jun-13 - 04:36 PM ET
Shooting Jack 06-Jun-13 - 04:45 PM ET
WPT 06-Jun-13 - 04:52 PM ET
greta500 06-Jun-13 - 07:19 PM ET
pheasantmaster 06-Jun-13 - 10:12 PM ET
2013ljuticman 06-Jun-13 - 10:23 PM ET
Richrude 07-Jun-13 - 01:06 AM ET
spitter 07-Jun-13 - 08:19 AM ET
Tron 07-Jun-13 - 08:29 AM ET
GN7777777 07-Jun-13 - 09:30 AM ET
Tron 07-Jun-13 - 09:41 AM ET
Bruce Specht 07-Jun-13 - 09:53 AM ET
Oregunner 07-Jun-13 - 09:54 AM ET
Stl Flyn 07-Jun-13 - 09:59 AM ET
himark 07-Jun-13 - 10:05 AM ET
DoubleAuto 07-Jun-13 - 10:47 AM ET
dhwbailey 07-Jun-13 - 11:11 AM ET
win1911sl 07-Jun-13 - 08:31 PM ET
OldGoat 07-Jun-13 - 08:56 PM ET
joe kuhn 07-Jun-13 - 09:56 PM ET
Avatar 08-Jun-13 - 02:06 AM ET
spitter 08-Jun-13 - 07:28 AM ET
Joe Potosky 08-Jun-13 - 07:43 AM ET
cubancigar2000 08-Jun-13 - 08:23 AM ET
frostyman 08-Jun-13 - 08:27 AM ET
MDJ67 08-Jun-13 - 09:07 AM ET
eightbore 08-Jun-13 - 09:12 AM ET
frostyman 08-Jun-13 - 10:44 AM ET
joe kuhn 08-Jun-13 - 11:02 AM ET
joe kuhn 08-Jun-13 - 07:06 PM ET
mallard2 08-Jun-13 - 11:23 PM ET
Kim Z. 09-Jun-13 - 02:21 AM ET
joe kuhn 09-Jun-13 - 07:42 AM ET
Big Jack 09-Jun-13 - 02:13 PM ET
Grizzlyman 10-Jun-13 - 12:17 AM ET
spitter 10-Jun-13 - 09:10 AM ET
Grizzlyman 10-Jun-13 - 10:11 AM ET
CalvinMD 10-Jun-13 - 10:27 AM ET
eightbore 10-Jun-13 - 10:35 AM ET
joe kuhn 10-Jun-13 - 11:34 AM ET
spitter 10-Jun-13 - 11:48 AM ET
roscoeparker 10-Jun-13 - 01:52 PM ET
johnboy 10-Jun-13 - 04:21 PM ET
Oregunner 10-Jun-13 - 04:54 PM ET
joe kuhn 11-Jun-13 - 12:38 PM ET
Wolfman 11-Jun-13 - 03:00 PM ET
Ogallala_1 11-Jun-13 - 10:47 PM ET


Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: GBatch_25
Date: Wed, Jun 05, 2013 - 05:27 PM ET
Website Address: http://www.kcchronicle.com/2013/06/05/3-hospitalized-after-accidental-shooting-near-elburn/atte45f/

I wasn't there last night but this was reported today:

Kane County Chronicle

BLACKBERRY TOWNSHIP – Three people were taken to the hospital with non-life-threatening injuries Tuesday after a gun accidentally discharged in unincorporated Blackberry Township, according to a news release from the Kane County Sheriff's Office.

Initial investigation indicated that a 69-year-old member of the St. Charles Sportsman's Club, 44W471 Keslinger Road, had completed shooting and entered the clubhouse at about 7:30 p.m., according to the release.

The St. Charles man was reportedly preparing to put his 12-gauge shotgun away and put a snap cap into the gun. A snap cap is reportedly used to save the firing pin of the gun while it is stored.

The man reportedly pulled the trigger – causing the shotgun to discharge – while he had the firearm pointed at the floor, according to the release.

A live shotgun round was in the gun instead of the snap cap, according to the release. The buckshot from the live shotgun round reportedly went into the floor and bounced up and out and hit several people.

A 31-year-old man from West Chicago, a 60-year-old man from Somonauk and a 14-year-old boy from Geneva were taken to Delnor Hospital in Geneva with non-life-threatening injuries, according to the release.

About seven people were treated and released at the scene, but the sheriff's office noted the final list is not yet available. The man who discharged the gun was among those reportedly treated at the scene.

Based on the initial investigation, the incident appears to be accidental, according to the release. It noted it does not appear that any charges will be sought.

Sheriff's deputies and Elburn police, fire and emergency medical personnel responded to the scene.

Gene in Illinois

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Bruce Specht
Date: Wed, Jun 05, 2013 - 05:51 PM ET
Website Address:

That is a terrible accident and I fell bad for all involved. I can only imagine how the man that made that mistake must feel. I hope there are no problems for the club that come from this. I was given some snap caps a few years ago that looked like a shot shell only shorter. I got rid of them for some chromed caps because the others looked so much like a red AA.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Calkidd
Date: Wed, Jun 05, 2013 - 06:36 PM ET
Website Address: http://www.trapshooters.com/cfpages/sthread.cfm?threadid=327525&Messages=4

Already being discussed.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: GBatch_25
Date: Wed, Jun 05, 2013 - 07:01 PM ET
Website Address:

Just my opinion Calkidd, but a thread titled "SNAP CAPS" doesn't exactly describe the event or the place. I'll keep my post up. Thanks for the input.

ALso, FYI there was s similar occurrence at the same club a few years ago. The culprit was a lady shooter who, I believe, picked up the wrong gun and fired it into the floor baseboard to release the firing pin before casing the gun. No snap cap involved in that event.

Gene in Illinois

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: mag410
Date: Wed, Jun 05, 2013 - 07:49 PM ET
Website Address:

The situation described is NOT an accidental discharge.

The shooter choose to pull the trigger on a gun that he assumed was empty.

This would not happen if the adults in this sport would follow the first, foremost, and simplest gun handling rule, the one we teach any new shooter the first time handle a gun, open the gun and make sure it is unloaded.

Michael

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: esoxhunter
Date: Wed, Jun 05, 2013 - 08:31 PM ET
Website Address:

I agree with mag410. This was negligence in the handling of a firearm. NOT an accident!! Ed

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: spitter
Date: Wed, Jun 05, 2013 - 08:58 PM ET
Website Address:

While there is clearly some negligence on the part of the member, unless you're suggesting the gentleman purposely put in a live shell, he didn't expect the gun to fire... an unexpected outcome... an accident.

Jay

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: GN7777777
Date: Wed, Jun 05, 2013 - 09:08 PM ET
Website Address:

I dont think of this as an accident.

Just as vehicle collisions arent called accidents any longer. That is determined afterwards.

First of all - he pulled the trigger- that act was intentional and stupid to do inside a club house

Second he violated one of the cardinal rules of gun safety, the muzzle of the gun was not pointed in a safe direction-- why would he ever have pointed the muzzle of the gun even in the general direction of anyone?

People that see this stuff happening at a range or in a building need to intervene and correct people on the spot when they see this. My guess is the guy had been doing this stuff for years and others at that location probably have also

Regards from Iowa

Gene

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: trapwife
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 08:47 AM ET
Website Address:

Gene, your post clearly states the gun was pointed at the floor, which I consider a safe direction. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill...

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Lurefish
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 08:55 AM ET
Website Address:

A safe direction does not result in people getting hurt. Ken Jeffries

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: eightbore
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 09:14 AM ET
Website Address:

Rules should always state that you don't close and snap a gun inside the club house. Snap caps aren't the problem. The use of snap caps is the problem.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: himark
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 09:20 AM ET
Website Address:

We must be a odd club. We dont allow guns IN the club house. Rarely someone will bring one in but they soon find no racks or places to put it down.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: WPT
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 09:20 AM ET
Website Address:

Safety is job ONE, Its every person who handles a gun to make sure he or she hadles it in a safe manner under any and all conditions ... Your only dead once, an accident that could of been avoided ... This would be grounds for a membership suspension to say the least ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Wolfman
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 09:41 AM ET
Website Address:

Gonna say it one more time - NO SNAP CAPS.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: spitter
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 09:47 AM ET
Website Address:

Snap-Caps aren't the problem, the use of Snap-Caps isn't the problem, it's the knuckle-head that inadvertently put a live shell into his gun and then pulled the trigger in a clubhouse full of people...

Jay

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Joe Potosky
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 09:56 AM ET
Website Address:

Knuckle-head or not, the lawyers will say what when the law suits come forth?

You can assume the club will also be named in any lawsuit (10).

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: bigdogtx
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 10:17 AM ET
Website Address:

Sounds like a "negligent" discharge as opposed to accidental,,,,,,,,,don't most clubs prohibit guns inside the clubhouse????

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Joe Potosky
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 10:22 AM ET
Website Address:

RE: don't most clubs prohibit guns inside the clubhouse

Not in my experience, and if yes, is the policy enforced, as that will be part of the investigation conducted by the lawyers involved!

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: spitter
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 10:24 AM ET
Website Address:

Joe:

I agree... that's the lawyers job... but then it's also an indictment against the entire firearm industry isn't it?! I'm not sure how wide reaching the recently enacted immunity laws go toward firearm accessories (if any), but someone has to make a case that snap-caps used correctly, are inherently dangerous... at which point, if there is no product immunity, the product liability insurance folks will price the product out of existence.

BDTx... here outside Chi-town, most, if not all ranges have racks inside the clubhouse to store firearms while not in use...

Jay

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: GN7777777
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 10:29 AM ET
Website Address:

now trapwife says mountain out of a molehill

So you are the mother of the 14 year old who goes shooting one day and comes home blind the next?

People were injured- 14 of them- 3 hospitalized

It obviously was not a safe direction-- I cant believe that a few people on here want to debate that fact

They might be friends of the shooter or they might have done this type of thing themselves but they certainly werent amoung the shot.

A story I have told many times- I was at a club in Indianna- shooting- and saw this kid on the line with his father- maybe 12 or 13- really not good gun safety- just swinging the muzzle a little too much

But

After the round the group gathered under a tree and I saw the kid come up with a closed BT or something and put the butt on the ground and his head rested on the barrel

Now I am certain some people say I made a mountain out of a molehill

I went up- told the father to have his son slowly remove his head- move that gun into a safe postion and open it

I saw hate in the fathers eyes- and for a moment he considered arguing or worse with me

My exact words included - " ...or something may happen that none up us will every forget the rest of our lives"

This guy should have been corrected years before by other shooters there-

Its not only him- it is everyone that claims this is "no big deal" or an "accident" or "making a mountain out of a molehill"

Regards from Iowa

Gene

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: himark
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 10:30 AM ET
Website Address:

Blaming snap caps is like overweight people blaming the fork.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Oregunner
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 10:41 AM ET
Website Address:

But if you want to address obesity, shouldn't you look at how the fork is being used? Maybe we shouldn't start talking about fat people on a trap forum. :) Mark

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Fooch
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 10:42 AM ET
Website Address:

I was at a skeet shoo at Nellis Airforce Base several years back, when a guy shot the tire off a rental car. He also thought he was using a snap cap.( so he thought). Ban the dumb things. Most shooters are getting too senile. Fooch

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: GN7777777
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 10:45 AM ET
Website Address:

It has nothing to do with snap caps- why was the gun pointed at the car?

Gene

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: himark
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 10:53 AM ET
Website Address:

Geeeeze you anti snap cap guys really need to reflect on your statements. "ban snap caps they are dangerous" So you are saying we should BAN "dangerous" things.........hmmmmmmmm. Dont like where this is going.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Oregunner
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 11:01 AM ET
Website Address:

Just don't put them in your gun and pull the trigger in a situation where it is possibly dangerous, and where a potential accident would have negative consequences. I don't get upset with an accidental discharge, when the gun is pointed down range. There is really no safe place to point a closed and possibly loaded gun in a clubhouse. Rule at our club is that all guns are open and empty in the clubhouse. That would rule out loading and closing your gun on a snap cap, let alone pulling the trigger. Mark

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: dickgtax
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 11:19 AM ET
Website Address:

Of course, everybody is assuming that he was telling the truth. How can you have a shell in your hand and put it in the gun thinking it's a snap cap - unless you're (1) blind (2) drunk (3) a moron. I think it's much more likely that he had a live shell in the gun and didn't know it.

Not everyone uses snap caps, and the truth it that it really doesn't hurt your gun to drop the hammer on an empty chamber the few times you do it when putting the gun away.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: joe kuhn
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 11:23 AM ET
Website Address:

I agree with Mark. No one should be closing their gun and pulling the trigger anywhere but from a shooting post on the line. I've seen several people close their guns and pull the triggers inside club houses with and without snap caps - that's how you use snap caps. The use of snap caps is dangerous.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: skeezix
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 11:29 AM ET
Website Address:

There was a shooter killed a couple years ago in California by a friend using 'snap-caps'

Have to pay attention to what you are doing.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: trapwife
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 11:35 AM ET
Website Address:

I was NOT down playing the seriousness of anyone getting hurt, I was just hoping that a stupid mistake would not be made into more that what it was. The shooter made the horrible mistake of putting a live round into his gun instead of a snap cap. It is normal procedure to "snap" the cap after it is inserted. Thank goodness it was pointed at the floor, and not across the room. The guy who shot his tire probably had his gun pointed at the ground as he was standing beside his car. Another stupid mistake, loading a live round instead of a snap cap. Harlan Campbell had a clinic once where a gun, pointed at the ground, accidentally went off. Pellets bounced off the cement walk and hit several others. I don't feel any of these situations were intentional, but they certainly could have been prevented. Safety has to always be first and foremost in everyone's actions. In this day and age of gun haters, all of us who enjoy our sport need to be vigilant about safety. We don't need to give any "ammunition" to fuel the fires of those trying to take away our guns.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Stl Flyn
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 12:02 PM ET
Website Address:

Isn't blaming the snap caps, kind of like blaming the guns? If you can't tell the difference between a snap cap, and a live shell, and the appropriate times for both, it really is not the inanimate items fault, is it?

I think the problem lies in that the routine to put a live shell in the gun, and fire, is still to close to the time as to when you were out on the line. Otherwise I can't believe that the snap cap would be placed anywhere close to a live round, say in a pocket, or extra shell slot on your vest or belt, next to a live round. That is just plain ignorance.

Like was stated earlier, this is really no accident. All it takes is a little distraction, to cause negligible actions. All precautions should be taken, long before these actions could take place. Also, I believe that for the short time that a gun is allowed in the club house, and the breech is required to be closed, as to putting the gun in the rack, there is no need what so ever to pull the trigger, period, including to release the springs. I agree on leaving the snap caps in the case, car, or at home, when the storage will be for a prolonged period. If you need to test the function of the gun, with snap caps, it should be on the line, pointing down range.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: FredB
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 01:30 PM ET
Website Address:

Hey while we're at it maybe he was too OLD to be using a firearm? After all he was 69!!! Maybe we should ban anyone over the age of say 65 from firearms? Hey airline pilots have to stop flying for the airlines at 65...hummm maybe that's the solution?

For F' sakes this was an accident. Yes an accident that could have been avoided! The poor guy thought he put a snap cap in his gun and unfortunately it was a live round. Stupid yes, unintentional I believe so. Fortunately he was pointing the firearm in a safe direction (at the floor) he was also lucky that his foot was not directly below the muzzle.

Its also sad that others were injured not seriously but still it does not matter much being hurt is not fun also it could have and maybe has traumatized some.

Point is this is all about SAFETY 101! As we all learned before we were given the privilege of handling a firearm ALWAYS keep the action OPEN when the gun is being handled or not in a case or secure place. In short "Treat Every Gun as if it were Loaded"! If he would have followed this simple safety rule this would not have happen Snap Caps or not!

I also agree with the gentleman who raised the point why did he bring a firearm into the club house? When I bring my guns into my home they are always in a case, no exceptions! Hard to believe the Club does not have a similar policy, if not it soon will I assure you as the insurance company will demand it. Unfortunately maybe a little late.

This is all about the human factor and not guns or snap caps or a persons age! Its about having the common sense and discipline to do everything safely. This incident could have been completely avoided if the safety rules were followed; no if, and or but!

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: oleolliedawg
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 01:37 PM ET
Website Address:

Not allowing guns in a gun club. Hmmm!!

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: CalvinMD
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 01:58 PM ET
Website Address:

Rick Johnson and I had a blast go into a clubs closed pavilion wall about 6 ft from our heads....not a fan of snap caps

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: WPT
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 02:00 PM ET
Website Address:

GUN Club: No guns allowed ... That ought to work ... lol ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: fishguts
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 03:53 PM ET
Website Address:

Two weeks ago a guy I know came into the clubhouse, put a snap cap in his gun, aimed it at my chest and pulled the trigger......

Wayne Meyers

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Stl Flyn
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 04:20 PM ET
Website Address:

A good friend, I take it?

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: DoubleAuto
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 04:36 PM ET
Website Address:

And I assume that a butt chewing ensued immediately after you got your heart going again? Maybe even a butt whipping?

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Shooting Jack
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 04:45 PM ET
Website Address:

Wayne, I would make sure he read this thread. Jackie B.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: WPT
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 04:52 PM ET
Website Address:

Wayne,

How far up his ass did you slam that gun ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: greta500
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 07:19 PM ET
Website Address:

Some years ago two friends who shot together finished shooting for the day at the Winter Haven Gun club in Florida. One gentleman put what he thought was a snap cap in the gun, closed it And pulled the trigger, seriously wounding the other man, two lives were ruined, a friendship Of many years destroyed and the end of their trapshooting fun due only to CARELESSNESS And not the snap cap.

We all have to be super careful...at all ages!

Greta Cesario

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: pheasantmaster
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 10:12 PM ET
Website Address:

I was taught at a tender age that pointing the muzzle upwards away from people was the safest direction

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: 2013ljuticman
Date: Thu, Jun 06, 2013 - 10:23 PM ET
Website Address:

If you can't tell the difference between putting in a snap cap and a live round you shouldn't be allowed to own a firearm.

- Paul

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Richrude
Date: Fri, Jun 07, 2013 - 01:06 AM ET
Website Address:

This was not an accident, pure negligence. I was told about the women doing the same thing tonight, story here about picking up different gun is worse . The only unloaded gun is the one I have just checked and not let out of my hand. There is no safe direction inside a building, with or without people inside. Downrange on hot range is the only safe direction.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: spitter
Date: Fri, Jun 07, 2013 - 08:19 AM ET
Website Address:

from Merriam Webster, on-line... Ac'cĂ­'dent

a : an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or ignorance

b : an unexpected and medically important bodily event especially when injurious

c : an unexpected happening causing loss or injury which is not due to any fault or misconduct on the part of the person injured but for which legal relief may be sought

argue with Webster...

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Tron
Date: Fri, Jun 07, 2013 - 08:29 AM ET
Website Address:

I'm amazed at all of the people on here that have never had a brain fart or ever made a mistake. It was an unfortunate accident and non intensional. $hit happens and I feel bad for the fellow who caused the mishap.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: GN7777777
Date: Fri, Jun 07, 2013 - 09:30 AM ET
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Shi*** like this doesnt just happen

Unless it was the individuals first time touching a firearm-- then it was everyones fault that saw him doing it and could have prevented it

This is ego plain and simple

He made the decision to go into a club house with his gun- obvioulsy not caring about anyone elses safty or rights

He made the decision to point the gun in an unsafe direction and apparently that was at an angle but towards people and a concrete floor? again not caring about safety or others rights

He made the big decision to pull the trigger while point towards others--

He might have been in a hurry to join the local BS or get cup of coffee or a meal or to get home

Ego- his wants and and rights he held above others

Now those that might have watched him do this previously and never said a word- same deal with them- ego- wanting to be liked or not disliked

No accident

and no this s*** does not just happen

Regards from Iowa

Gene

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Tron
Date: Fri, Jun 07, 2013 - 09:41 AM ET
Website Address:

Yes, Gene, it simply does. We are humans, even you are (I think, but sometimes your posts are of a more reptilian nature). I'm just amazed that stuff like this doesn't happen more often, when you add everything up.

Now, that said, the guy mentioned in fishguts post is a Moron that should never be allowed to ever handle a gun. Yes, a good ass whoopin' would be in order.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Bruce Specht
Date: Fri, Jun 07, 2013 - 09:53 AM ET
Website Address:

Snap caps aren't the culprit here, but using chromed snap caps or some type that looks nothing like a shot shell could help eliminate this type of accident in the future. Yes the person made a horrible mistake that could have been far worse, but it was a mistake that I'm sure he's beating himself up about. As a gun owner safe gun handeling is job one, and staying focused when working with any tool needs to be the objective. We've all done things when we didn't pay complete attention to what we were doing. This was a tragic accident and we all need to learn from it and keep safety when handeling guns as a top priority.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Oregunner
Date: Fri, Jun 07, 2013 - 09:54 AM ET
Website Address:

It was a mental brain fart. Things happen. The goal is to minimize the possibility of how often. If stupid stuff never happened, we would never need insurance. More people are killed by cars than guns. I think anyone that has used their cell phone while driving should be banned from driving a car, because they must be idiots, and don't have the proper respect for operating a dangerous machine.

We had an older guy that shoots a variety of guns in different gauges, show up with a 20 gauge Model 12 and both 20 and 28 gauge shells in his vest. He dropped a 28 gauge shell in the ejection port, then started looking at the gun, and realized that it had gone partway down the barrel. Luckily, it all turned out OK, and he was embarrassed. He knew better, but just wasn't paying attention. Brain fart.

Mark

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Stl Flyn
Date: Fri, Jun 07, 2013 - 09:59 AM ET
Website Address:

Wow! It must be winter somewhere? LOL. All of these threads about snap caps.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: himark
Date: Fri, Jun 07, 2013 - 10:05 AM ET
Website Address:

Accidents will happen. I honestly feel bad for the guy that did this. I am absolutely sure he will probably quit shooting at this club and or will likely quit all together. Some of you will say '''GOOD. But you and I were NOT there we do not know this gentleman. We ALL make mistakes.

A good club should pull together support the man and say......."we all need to learn from this" It was a very unfortunate ACCIDENT. We care about you and our sport and need to take the appropriate precautions.

1. No guns should be allowed IN THE CLUB HOUSE. This to me is an obvious answer.

2. Refer to all the rules that ALREADY apply.

I dont want to take away from the seriousness of this accident but you guys that are so quick to condemm need to try and put yourself in his shoes for a moment to as well as the clubs.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: DoubleAuto
Date: Fri, Jun 07, 2013 - 10:47 AM ET
Website Address:

The "shooter" needs to be held responsible for his irresponsible action and suffer the consequences of this irresponsibility. Innocent bystanders are suffering because of his irresponsible action. The club members don't need to form a circle, hold hands and sing Kumbaya while comforting this man. Anybody who picks up any firearm takes on serious responsibilities for being safe and insuring the safety of others. The club may well suffer because of this discharge through lawsuits and adverse publicity.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: dhwbailey
Date: Fri, Jun 07, 2013 - 11:11 AM ET
Website Address:

Never point a firearm at anything you don't intend to destry.

Plain and simple....a stupid negligent thing to do.

He may be a nice guy, but he shouldn't own firearms...period.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: win1911sl
Date: Fri, Jun 07, 2013 - 08:31 PM ET
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OK we have covered snap caps. I want to know what games they shoot there that requires BUCKSHOT??? Opening post says buckshot was used.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: OldGoat
Date: Fri, Jun 07, 2013 - 08:56 PM ET
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Buckshot?? Oh, I'm sure someone "accidently" picked up the wrong shell. From some of the postings, this might not be a big deal to some...just another brain fart...like the guy at our club years ago who missed several skeet targets before discovering he was using slugs. Guess this is why they put erasers on pencils, sell liability insurance, and lawyers are ever-present and ready to pounce. Are any at this club "lawyered up" yet? Sad situation all around. Regards, Ed

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: joe kuhn
Date: Fri, Jun 07, 2013 - 09:56 PM ET
Website Address:

Probably written by a non-shooter who doesn't know the difference between buckshot and bird shot. It was bird shot based on wound size. I was there.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Avatar
Date: Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 02:06 AM ET
Website Address:

Snap caps at ranges have suddenly become a hot topic on this board, with several threads.

I think what happened has to be considered an accident, but one that could have been prevented by either of two simple rules: don't point a gun even in the general direction of someone and/or ban snap caps/dry firing at ranges. The first is a no brainer. I think I also favor banning dry firing at clubs, except for circumstances in which dry firing is part of a practice excercise with wall charts or similar.

The fact is that everyone does a lot of routine activity using divided attention. Sure, if the person were paying full attention to the snap cap at the time, he/she would notice it was a real shell; but, the action of inserting a snap cap becomes a routine over time and the danger mounts that the person will be dividing attention with something else and not noticing that a real shell has been grabbed. I don't think color is even an issue. Of course, the danger remains low, but why not eliminate it entirely since snap caps/dry firing really aren't needed at the range?

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: spitter
Date: Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 07:28 AM ET
Website Address:

Prohibitions don't work, re-education and vigilance do. Use the situation as a learning experience.

Complacency and arrogance may be the biggest threats to one individual safety... just as driving a car requires "looking out for the other guy..." shooting sports require we be observant of our surroundings and those within it.

These BBs offer a mask for responders to comment, BUT my experience in helping run a range for 20 years is that very few folks will unilaterally attempt to correct bad behavior at the moment, on or off the line - few want to "get involved". When we have these discussions, all I ever hear is "it's not my job, it's the ROs..."

Folks, the RO, if you have one... has only two eyes and ears...

Safety is JOB #1 for each of us... and reticence is not a personality trait limited to just my members...

We don't need snap-cap police or a squad of "Officers Dick Head"... be observant and offer a gentlemanly suggestion when poor firearm handling is witnessed...

Jay

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Joe Potosky
Date: Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 07:43 AM ET
Website Address:

Follow up:

Pascale Rapp, 44 and James Harris, 40, were among the six who were treated at the scene, though police did not release their hometowns. Neither had listed phone numbers.

Four male juveniles were treated at the scene, a 9-year-old from West Chicago, a 17-year-old from Elburn, and two other boys aged 11 and 15, but police did not know what towns they were from.

Askwith was driven to Delnor, where he was treated and released. Askwith did not return a voicemail message left at his home.

John Wilbur, 19, of Geneva, said he was shooting on the range with a youth league when the accidental discharge occurred.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: cubancigar2000
Date: Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 08:23 AM ET
Website Address:

Snap caps are no more the problem than guns are the reason for mass shootings. This was a case of stupidity & I have to agree with Gene on this. I dont consider the flor or the ground a safe place to point a gun when others are around. Point it down range or to the sky. I also dont believe the gun should have been in the club house. If you want to use a snap cap go for it but dont do it until it is going into your vehicle

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: frostyman
Date: Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 08:27 AM ET
Website Address:

Is there any "real" reason for using snap caps? Most, if not all, gun manufacturers will tell you that you can snap the trigger on an empty chamber all day and it will not hurt your gun (on center fire guns anyway which include shotguns).

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: MDJ67
Date: Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 09:07 AM ET
Website Address:

GN777777 is 100%%% right on all of his reply's to this post.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: eightbore
Date: Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 09:12 AM ET
Website Address:

Frostyman, you don't plan to snap that gun on an empty chamber while in the clubhous or anywhere on the club grounds other than on the station do you? That would violate the rules at most clubs.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: frostyman
Date: Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 10:44 AM ET
Website Address:

I wasn't planning on snapping the gun but was just wondering why people needed snap caps since there does not really appear to be any reason that they are needed. Not sure how snapping the gun on an empty chamber hurts the gun.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: joe kuhn
Date: Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 11:02 AM ET
Website Address:

Some guys have said an accidental release without a snap cap would break the firing pin.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: joe kuhn
Date: Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 07:06 PM ET
Website Address:

New sign on each door:

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: mallard2
Date: Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 11:23 PM ET
Website Address:

The law decides the difference between negligence and accident in every tort case.

If a "reasonable" or "average" person could have prevented the outcome with "reasonable care and attention", it is negligence.

410 is correct: open the gun, make sure it is unloaded = no shot fired.

This is negligence, which is not the same in any way as "intended", but still preventable.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Kim Z.
Date: Sun, Jun 09, 2013 - 02:21 AM ET
Website Address:

As a Ljutic Mono owner, I put a snap cap in my gun when I'm finished shooting on the field. I slide my gun in a soft case (facing the trap house)and press the trigger. I have been obsessive in doing this because of these instructions in the Ljutic manual:

"ALWAYS KEEP A SNAP CAP IN THE CHAMBER!!! ... The Ljutic has such force behind the trigger and hammer that snapping the trigger on an empty chamber can result in a broken firing pin or bent hammer pin which adversely affects the weight of the trigger pull.

TRIGGER: Leave the trigger of your gun in the fired position after you have finished shooting, and while the gun is not in use. In the fired position, tension is relieved from the trigger springs."

I could put the snap cap in while loading the car or at home. I would be very mindful not to have my gun pointed in ricochet proximity of my wife.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: joe kuhn
Date: Sun, Jun 09, 2013 - 07:42 AM ET
Website Address:

Kim Z - I wonder if something like this would work for you just as well.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Big Jack
Date: Sun, Jun 09, 2013 - 02:13 PM ET
Website Address:

Ljutic owners have a simple method of lowering their hammer. Remove the forend & barrel, place the cocking rod against something like a piece of lumber, Pull the trigger and the hammer will release and can be let down easily without snapping. Reinstall the barrel & forend with your "Snap Cap" in the barrel if you feel you need one. Works for me! I Never use a snap cap but I do wipe the chamber when the barrel is off. Consider replacing the firing pin with one of the new style that has a spring on it..reduces the pressure on the firing pin when stored with a "Snap Cap" in the barrel.

Big Jack

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Grizzlyman
Date: Mon, Jun 10, 2013 - 12:17 AM ET
Website Address:

Let me add that it is my understanding that the use of snap caps was prohibited INSIDE the SCSC club houses long prior to this unfortunate incident, for this very reason.

Be safe everyone.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: spitter
Date: Mon, Jun 10, 2013 - 09:10 AM ET
Website Address:

This issue of whether guns should be in the clubhouse... where is this coming from?! I've been to @20 clubs and I think only a couple had no racks indoors... the two included a sporting clays venue and an army post range, but had a covered pavilion with benches you could lay your equipment on...

We're gun clubs...

I'll respect the NO snap-caps policy at St. Charles SC, even though I may not agree with it, but it is their property to dictate the operation and policies...

I do hope they leave the nice gun rack inside...

Jay

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Grizzlyman
Date: Mon, Jun 10, 2013 - 10:11 AM ET
Website Address:

A no guns inside the club house rule seems ridiculous to me. Do many clubs actually have such a rule?

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: CalvinMD
Date: Mon, Jun 10, 2013 - 10:27 AM ET
Website Address:

Had an AD this morning....no more raisin bran for a bedtime snack : P

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: eightbore
Date: Mon, Jun 10, 2013 - 10:35 AM ET
Website Address:

Frostyman and Joe Kuhn still don't choose to join the discussion. This discussion is not about whether dry firing will harm a gun, it's about whether we should be closing and snapping guns on gun club property other than on the firing line. It is against the rules at any club I am involved with. A break open gun is closed only when putting it in a rack or casing it unless you are on the firing line. A magazine gun is closed only when casing it or when on the firing line. Snapping a gun should only be allowed when on the firing line.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: joe kuhn
Date: Mon, Jun 10, 2013 - 11:34 AM ET
Website Address:

"Snapping a gun should only be allowed when on the firing line."

I agree. But then you have to get it to your case while the gun is still closed. Better have your case with you.

At this club, snap caps are no longer allowed at all.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: spitter
Date: Mon, Jun 10, 2013 - 11:48 AM ET
Website Address:

8-Bore...

I think the very comment you make is where that gray area comes about... breaking down and casing a gun... for instance - AND I REPEAT, I DON'T DRY FIRE... when I approach the back of my truck, I close the 90Ts action to remove the forend, OTHERS might take that same moment to also relieve the firing pin spring tension, just before breaking the gun down... again, to case it.

The gentleman inside at SCSC and others as well as those we've heard about above in parking lots... folks who choose to snap-cap (where now allowed) have to ensure that what is in the chamber is actually a snap-cap and not a live round. But let's be clear, we've all seen plenty of stupid gun handling on a range, on the line too.

If clubs/ranges choose to amend their gun handling policies, that's their choice... but the shooter is ultimately responsible for their actions.

Respectfully adding,

Jay

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: roscoeparker
Date: Mon, Jun 10, 2013 - 01:52 PM ET
Website Address:

Hi Gene; If I am not mistaken that is one of the clubs you shoot at, sorry this happened, I sure hope this doesn't cause the club any serious problems. Not real smart what the guy did, but accidents do happen. Bill Parker

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: johnboy
Date: Mon, Jun 10, 2013 - 04:21 PM ET
Website Address:

Snap caps are an invitation to an accidental discharge. I drop the hammers on hard plastic after the barrels have been removed on my double barrel guns. Pumps and auto's are checked empty before releasing the hammer.

Assumption is the mother of all screw ups!

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Oregunner
Date: Mon, Jun 10, 2013 - 04:54 PM ET
Website Address:

The common sense thing to do, is treat a snap cap as if it was a live round, and chamber and point your gun accordingly. If, by mistake a live round is put in, then an accidental dischange will be an embarrassment, not an injury accident. So, don't do it in a clubhouse, don't do it pointing at the ground or anywhere else, except in the air or downrange. Pulling the trigger on an empty chamber should be treated the same way, just in case. If you want to chance blowing out the wall of your home, then wait till you get home to aim it anywhere that is not safe for a live shell. JMO. Mark

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: joe kuhn
Date: Tue, Jun 11, 2013 - 12:38 PM ET
Website Address:

I know the shooter has been going through trauma of his own as are others involved. I for one would like to say that if/when he decides to come back, if/when the club decides to allow him to continue to shoot, that I will be there to shoot with this guy. I've done so in the past and will continue to do so in the future. We have to learn from this and move on. I know I've learned a lot. I believe it's important to support each other and get through the tough spots.

Hope to make it up to the club tonight.

Joe

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Wolfman
Date: Tue, Jun 11, 2013 - 03:00 PM ET
Website Address:

Joe, I agree - I'd shoot with him also. I am very sure he would be safe.

Spitter, I agree. Too easy to make an unfortunate mistake.

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Subject: Accidental discharge - St Charles Sportsmen's Club
From: Ogallala_1
Date: Tue, Jun 11, 2013 - 10:47 PM ET
Website Address:

Very unfortunate incident. I am sure the shooter will NEVER be the same or the others involved. Too bad all of you are such experts and have never made a mistake in you wonderful shooting careers. To error is human......to ridicule is asinine, learn from the mistake don't go Obama about the situation.

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