Golf is hurting because fewer companies buy memberships for their execs. or sponser teams for leagues.

Has nothing to do with trap.

Why were most of the big shoots out west and Florida up in attendance? Cardinal?

Reality for me is that 1.Yes I feel the economy and the large # of people that are either unemployed or have take jobs that are only paying a considerable lower wage are not able to either support thier own hobbies such as trap ect. also they are making choices on what they can afford to sponsor/support thier children in various activities.2.In my business(I do music instrument retail,repairs,lessons and rentals we have to work harder than ever to earn our cutomers business,with the tougher times we are down a few employees so we are having to do the more or the same with less so while our state shoot was happening I was working/when the zones we happening I was working/Im not complaining here just stating some facts.3 The Grand is a dream tournament for me and I hope to go some day but being that I live out west it is a longer trip and thus more expensive to make thus while the Grand was happening Im working.Im a 29 year vet in my industry so me and my partners tend to study our demographics here and it is going to be awhile befor things start to turn to the positive and lost jobs are regained.Sincerly George

Sorry Surfer, you wiped out. The Buckeye Classic was up 486 entries, the Southern Grand was up significantly, PA was down only 2 entries for the entire week and the list goes on-mostly up. I supposed you're telling us the economy suddenly tanked within the last two months. Next you're gonna tell us shooters with $10,000 shotguns and $250,000 motor homes are financially unable to attend the Grand in Sparta.

The economy may not be the greatest but it's likely Sparta might not be a favored destination!!

Andy and I live in gun-friendly Pennsylvania where more registered trapshooters reside than any other state (the last I checked, anyway). Accordingly, it is easy for shooters from this area to think that the shooting sports aren't seeing a decline. But I receive a lot of reader mail and it comes from all over the country. From it, I can tell you that participation is down nationally and to the extent that some clay target-only clubs have closed.

Certainly the economy is the largest negative influence. Gasoline at $3.50-plus per gallon sure doesn't help. Component and shell prices are mind-boggling for someone like me who stocked up years ago and hasn't had to buy any until recently. My local gun shop owner even called me this week almost giddy with the news that his last load of shot came in at a price where he can sell it for a quarter per bag less than his last load.

And then there's Sparta. Yes, I'm from Pennsylvania and all that but I really don't think Sparta will ever have the appeal that Vandalia enjoyed. Remember walking across US40 to your choice of restaurants? Remember the Buckhorn Tavern and their killer steaks? Remember all the motels 10 or 15 minutes away? Heck, remember the TREES? Even with politics removed from consideration, the ATA violated one of the cardinal rules of business - they moved their biggest event farther away from the largest group of their customers. Yes, I know all about them having no other options but still...

Before anyone thinks I loved to shoot at Vandalia, be advised that I usually shot poorly there. I managed a 100 in singles just once at Vandalia and have to own up to an 85 I broke in the first event of the 100th Grand on those rubber Remington targets. It wasn't my favorite place to shoot by a long shot but the atmosphere was second to none.

Maybe in my grandchildrens' lifetimes, Sparta will gain popularity among more than just the shooters close to it. I hope so but for now, all we can do is try to put people in political office that won't be in over their heads as soon as they are sworn in so our economy has a chance of recovering sooner.

Ed

Just arrived home from Sparta; yes the shoot was down, again. I received my 45 year attendance ribbon. I believe their is more than 1 reason that The Grand no longer has the 800-1000 squad attendance we once enjoyed. External influences, the economy is certainly in the tank, the unemployment figures are published mainly by the liberal media and do not reflect under employment or those that have either quit looking or went on early retirement. I bought deisel fuel for $4.13 a gallon while near Sparta. Don't think that doesn't have an effect, back when gas went from .35 a gallon to .70 attendance dropped over 15% at The Grand that year.

The camping at Vandalia was less than $200 for the 2 weeks. My 5 year lease at Sparta was $300 a year. Last 2 years 1 week at Sparta was $480. I shot several state shoots this year for $30. a 100 plus fees. The Grand was $33. plus fees. I paid to pre squad, I requested bank preference first, I shot 2 events out of 15 on the requested bank area. Vendor space has seen more vacant space every year, the vendors I speak with tell me it is just too expensive for the amount of money they take in. I understand that the Martin family will no longer be donating funds. It seems they are disappointed that others with the wearwithall to match their generosity have not stepped forward. I observed that the current tournament management could not handle this event if we were to enjoy the crowds of 800-1000 squads of the past.

We need an executive commitee that realizes this sport grew to it's previous stature with a working class membership. I do not believe our EC is in touch with this segment of our society. Most of these individuals are not having to make financial choices to be able to shoot. One of the EC asked me last year, "How did you shoot today?" on preliminary Sunday, my reply, "I didn't shoot, you guys raised the camping fees and I can only afford so much".

I have purchased all my new shells from Gamiel, not Walmart. I am sure that the shell house profit in Vandalia netted more to the ATA than what licensing fees are derived from Gamiel. I think The ATA needs to sell shells again.

2 yards off is not the answer. The ATA needs to get the working shooter back!

Started shooting in 2008 and fell in love, went to the grand in 08 by myself and had a blast. In 2009 my son and family came alone and Tony II just started shooting, and we had a blast. We havent missed a year since, and hope we dont. Never went to Vandalia but have heard very good and bad, i guess its up to the person, but Sparta is our Grand. Greast time for shooting and family time. Lasy year my son won first day caps and this year came in 2nd on last day, know that is a Grand expericance, we had to cut back on shooting this year so we could shoot in whole Grand but to be able to compete with my son and have a very good Grand its worth everything to shoot good at the biggest trap shoot and be able to have aleast on good day to compete with the best. We love the Grand and the Grand expericance. The Tony Kirk family

Go Sparta

it's just a shame they don't have anyone to mow the weeds! For a world class facility, it was a disgrace.

me to blade819

Zinger - you just got the job!

Subject: Shoot Offs From: zinger Email: Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2012 - 04:03 PM ET Website Address:

it's just a shame they don't have anyone to mow the weeds! For a world class facility, it was a disgrace.

What is even more a shame is the way gOlf cart and ATv . Enthusiasts treat the grounds they run all over with no regard as to what they are doing to the vegetation they don't care there. Weds to be restrictions on the traffic .there needs tO be travel paths not the whole damn aea from the 27 to the parking lot, the needs to be rules about kids and carts, carts after dark with out lights. Arts that run through stop signs and intersections . There will be a fatal cart/ATv accident on the grounds, saw way to many. Close calls it needs to be regulated

Andy, we can dance forever, but the fact remains the economy sucks and it effects everything except bars and gambling who's businesses always increases during downturns. One group drinks their fears and sorrows away while the other pisses away what little money they have trying to make it big to make up for lost income. I can say this, Las Vegas isn't booming............. And by the way kids don't have money their parents do, and they're foolish enough to give it them without earning it.

Several mini grands and some state shoots continue to do well particularly those area's with a high concentration of trap shooters or shooters who have the financial means to travel the national circuit. However, the disturbing trend of average shooters bypassing small regional shoots the backbone of the ATA in favor of larger shoots continues. This trend probably has more to do with managing their reduced disposable income in order to get the most bang for their buck, but its killing a number of small clubs. I'm sure if asked a number of these clubs would agree. If you read other than trap shooting material, you would find national sporting numbers are down along with skeet.

ATA is the platform who oversee's national trapshooting competition and can not rely on one or two regions to support it's framework and serve a national membership, if it fails we'll be back to a Micky Mouse regional platform with without continuity and direction.

Reading your responses to me and others, suggests to me ,you do live in a bubble and haven't a clue what's going on across the nation or around the globe much less the national trapshooting community.

Surfer

Surfer, oh gosh, where do I start? First of all, Trapshooting, traditionally, never catered to the local trailer trash, bar drunks or drug heads. You should be aware that people with higher amounts of disposable income tend to be Trapshooters, Sporting Clays shooters and Skeeters.

I suggest you subscribe to the latest issue of Trapshooting USA. Some of those attendance figures at many of the large shoots and Satellite Grands may astonish you with the increases. You are right by saying many little ATA clubs are suffering but that often is the result of too many shoots on the same dates. Please tell all of us which major shoots other than the Grand are suffering as the result of the recession. You might want to know that Krieghoff is barely able to keep up with the demand for Sporting Clays K-80's. Some of those buggers sell for between $50,000 and $100,000.

If you still believe a typical high school graduate today can somehow enter the sport of Trapshooting you might want to re-think your position. My son, a 4-time All-American and Engineering grad makes 3x as much money as I ever made. Many of his friends are just as well off but none have any desire to compete. Sound familiar?

How can Las Vegas still be a gambling mecca when many states now have their own casinos? Please don't tell me people no longer gamble as that proves the bubble you refer to is the one surrounding your head!!

Is there a shoot in Sturgis? I don't see it on the schedule.

GB DLS

Andy, I was one of Clay Shooting USA early subscribers and transfered my subscription when they introduced Trap Shooting USA and still subscribe along with Trap & Field and Wall Street Journal for a business perspective and a number of other periodicals. I consider myself fairly well read and try to stay abreast of the world around me.

I never suggested people who are in the lower social economic strata are potential trap shooters, although the largest growth the ATA has ever experienced came from blue collar participants not the narrower band of upper imcome participants.

What I have been saying is the overall national participation in trapshooting is in decline and the economy is playing a large part in its decline and has an effect on Grand attendance and other shoots as well. I also stated a number of shoots are doing well but a number aren't and small clubs are suffering.

By the way my son has a high school education and the only trap he shoots is off the stern of his 38' Bertram or with me for an occasional day of pot shooting. Life's never been equal, never will be, hard work and smart thinking will always produce better results.

You have your view and I have mine' lets leave at that

Surfer

The Grand location is still a major problem for a very large number of shooters. Clyde

surfer, please don't tell me people aren't shooting the Grand because of lack of disposable income. You may want to explain how the local sporting clays course (Lehigh Valley Sporting Clays) was so full last week that our group had difficulty finding an unoccupied station. By the way, that was on a Wed. morning at a mere $36/100 targets. One of our group had difficulty finding a parking place and was forced to park his Maserati next to my wifes' older Mercedes near the back of the lot. Pity him!

Yes, some areas in the country are hurting while others are going great guns. Our area is doing fine regardeless of the recession. Too many shooters complain about the lack of blue collar participants while holding a $15,000 K-80 slung over their shoulders and looking with disdain at those bringing their trusty old 870 to a Trapshoot.

There are many reasons why the Grand in Sparta will never enjoy the mystique or participation once enjoyed by Vandalia-#1 being location while disposable income is much farther down the list!!

Dawg,

Why do you bother communicating with surfer? He has a grandiose view, yet is condescending and foul-mouthed towards others. I have learned to skip past his posts.

scooterbum, I'm bored-it's Monday-I don't want to ship out a few guns I just sold-I don't want to wash clothes while getting ready to head to Cardinal Center. The list is long!!