Got a nice message from Pointer in reference to the correction to his description that I made (the fact that these have virtually nothing in common w/ a Krieghoff) and the additional information I offered in reference to the rib being simmons:

"Want to tell me why you feel you need to post comments on my FS item? You bored? Jack ass" -Pointer

Skeet and Zim. Thanks for jumping my FS post guys, I'm sure people are very impressed with your knowledge.

If anyone has questions about the Finland Valmet ST Trap please research the history.

Or give Skeet and Zim a call!

A friend of mine shot one of these for years. Swears by if for doubles. I know of about 200,000 rounds through that gun. Broke 1 ejector. I have a like new 20 ga with the box that I want to sell. I shot it 2 times and put it in the safe. Was going to use it as a upland gun but never got time. I hope to post it in a few days along with some other guns I'm looking to sell.

Pointer I didn't see anything negative about your gun on their posts. This is an open forum and I'm sure any prospective buyer would like any info available that's out there, from you or them. Bill

Message #2 from Pointer: " Son, A bit of advice. Reasearch where the Valmet came from, and when. Then research where the K 32 came from and when. Same planns taken after World War II. I see from your web page that you think you are all that and a bag of chips..you still have a lot to learn. Chill..finish school grow a bit and you will not likely feel the need to correct people to prove you are all that. People with self confidence don't do what you are doing now. They don't feel they need to."

I shot one along time no issues, in 1991 a buddy of mine, Fred (cash-back, named by Earl Scripture)Kaschak won The Grand American Handicap with one. I like the guns, they just shoot flatter than i like.

barry kemper

Some people think a Remington 3200 is just like a Krieghoff. It's a common fallacy!!

I said "I'm told Valmet made these from the same plans as the K-32". I did not say they were the exact same gun. A lot of people know about the Valmet type guns, but there are many. None the same as the Finland ST

If you look at the time line of the Rem 32, the Kreighoff and the Valmet ST, one followed the other in history. The Valmet 412 ST was also inspired by the Remington 32. (like the K-32) The 1932 Rem patents expired in the '50s and Valmet adopted the design. The main designer of VALMET Leijona ST was tecnician Paavo Narinen (so yes the internals are not the exact same as the K-32) Damon Petrik made the block. The patent of the the locking block of the Valmets, the Remington 32, and the Krieghoff O/U shotguns..all Petrik's. The manufacturing tools were taken from Germany post WWII.

The same basic gun has changed and gone cheep imported as a "Tikka", "Finnewerk", and Valmet Lion which went on to be the Tikka 412, then the Marocchi "FinnClassic.. But, these are made in Italy, and don't have the same quality at all as the Finnish ST.

The original finland Valmet 412 ST is very much like the K-32 in many respects and some will argue it is of equal quality.

Pointer, got to say you certainly do your research and know the history of this firearm. Good luck in your endeavor! Up for a quality gun. Bill

pm sent

I have two 412 ST's One is a trap double 34" top single and 32" o/u and one is an o/u in 30" barrels.I acquired the second one recently for skeet. They do shoot naturally flat in the 412 field model but the mc stock and adjustable comb in the ST model are more than sufficient for trap. Love 'em! Parts are readily available from Russ Gould at Doublegun hq. com in Canby Oregon.He imports the current Marocchi made Finnclassic clone of the 412. By the way all the barrel sets and both forearms fit either receiver and provide a great deal of flexibilty as a result. I'm currently looking at some double rifle barrels which will also fit.By the way isn't the k80 a lot different from the original k32 that K bought from remington?I understand that the only real commonality may be the lock up mechanism? MDMIKE you've been talking about selling that 20 ga. for over a year now[smile] When will you list it ?

greengael, your understanding of the differences between the original Model 32 Krieghoff and a K-80 are limited at best. Until you've taken off a stock from both models and compared each side by side you'd notice the similarities are striking.

That said, comparing a Krieghoff to a Valmet or Remington 3200 is a sacrilege. You are obviously no Gunsmith.

Well, they all go bang when you pull the trigger. I suppose that makes all of them the same!!

Come on Guys!

It's not a Krieghoff, it's not a Remington 3200 and it's not advertised or priced as such. It doesn't look bad...it has a custom Simmons rib and comes with five choke tubes. 70/30 POI might be a stretch...I'd have to verify that, but it's possible. With a 14 1/2" LOP, Monte Carlo stock and what looks like a selectable trigger, it's set up pretty well and wood looks decent. If it's mechanically sound, not shot out and comes with a three day inspection, $900 is not a bad asking price for a 30" O/U.

No mention of a case or accessories or shipping?

What's a fair price? Any offers?

Pointer's got his eye on an upgrade, let's get this sold and move on.

yo smokin', I sold a ton of Valmet 412 ST's when they came out in the mid-80's. Actually, they were a pretty good gun for the money but shot a bit low. Really nice wood, good trigger and comparable to the 3200. The Simmons rib on this one is a wonderful upgrade as most of the original ribs fell off. Great value here!!

hell,I paid 900. for one of these used...FIFTEEN years ago!

nothing can touch this at this price point.

up for a Great gun^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Pointer,

There's a lot of good people and a wealth of knowledge and experience on TS.com. Andy's (Oleolliedawg) post to your thread is a good example. Your Posts and PMs to Skeet Man, Slayer & Zim are not helping with your sale.

Andy,

I never owned a Valmet 412, but I have owned and shot several Model 32s and Remington 3200s. I agree with your comments. According to friends that have owned them, they are notorious for shooting FLAT or less than 50/50 which is probably why the previous owner had that RIB installed. That makes this gun interesting and I wouldn't mind shooting it myself.

Hello ollie, no I am not a gunsmith and really only know what I've been told by people whose opinions I respect. If you notice, there was a question mark after the points you reference. As far as comparing the two I meant to indicate that the only similarity between the K gun and The V gun was the lock-up mechanism and perhaps some superficial cosmetic similarites. I agree my understanding is limited at best

greengael, call me anything you want-jackass included. If Columbus believed the earth was flat like everyone told him you wouldn't be on this continent. Maybe a good thing. People told me the moon was made out of green cheese-is it true?

Better pick your sources more carefully!!

...sources and ARGUEMENTS!

Experience is a brutal teacher...

It gives the TEST FIRST and the LESSON LAST.

Is your Valmet still available? Neighbor wants an over/under for Grandson. Please e-mail .....Herb

Pending funds