Setterman, Setterman, .....

Sqeaky wheels get greased first.

As one of the Michigan juniors I can say that the MTA has gotten under the skin of many of our juniors. Most of us will not be renewing our camping leases next year. Most of us will only be shooting the championship rounds. For the juniors chasing points, it is simply not worth it to shoot preliminary rounds and full shoots that have no point value. The glg is the only shoot with points all week. So, why would these juniors pay full price for preliminary targets. For the other juniors that don't chase points, its simply not economical to shoot full price targets. I have tried talking to some of the board members. They believe that Michigan is one of the last states to charge full price to juniors and sub juniors. Ohio is the only state that has full price targets for juniors. I have been to the Ohio state shoot twice now, and the fact is there are kids there, but they are the top shooters. Most of the average level junior and sub juniors just aren't there. Full price targets for the kids will be a big mistake for the MTA. Jason Jonckheere

Reasons could not be explained any better than that, thank you Jason for the post.

Ask your fellow shooters to post up, the board needs to hear from the ones affected.

CM

Well spoken Jason. Also you mention "point chasers", the point system has been hurting the small local shoots across the land in my opinion. I wish Michigan well, there's a lot of good people there.

Jason- Good luck on your pursuit of All American. I agree with your above post, and cost of targets for youth will definitely affect our schedule next year. Most of our youth shooters are not All American candidates, so it comes down to cost of targets for the experience. Unfortunately, several adults will also be shooting the same location of the kids (parents and grandparents).

A question for you- in pursuing All American points, how do you know where you stand, when there are no AA points posted on the ATA website? Do you just go shoot everywhere you possibly can, and hope it shakes out in the end? I would think as a parent and coach, it could drive you crazy with no idea of where you stand in the race with other AA candidates. Even our high school cross country team can go to a website for results, standings, points accumulated, etc.

Joe Nester

Williams County Target Busters

Joe, Usually the points are posted in the shooter information as the season progresses, but because the ata office moved to sparta, they are very far behind. No AA points have even been posted yet, so that is what most of us did. I know I didn't accumulate enough of them to do anything, but I know many juniors who just shot until they couldn't shoot anymore because they weren't able to see the standings. Jason

With the MTA struggling as it is, it is indeed reasonable that the BOD would move to eliminate discounts that are affecting their revenue stream.

Although youth at half price does affect revenue stream if you compare it to youth at full price targets, it may or may not affect profit, and I'm hearing profit is what the MTA is concerned with.

There are very few youth shooters that don't bring some shooting adults and campers and eaters with them. I have been involved with some events that having half price youth targets (IF they play no options) definitely added to the profitability of the event.

I am certain that full price youth targets will affect MTA's bottom line, but the wrong way. That's just the way it is today in paying for youth shooting. If you have some other drawing cards, you can get the full price, for a shoot or 2. Someone should be scheduling a meeting with Midway USA and talking about their youth dilema, and maybe they could get some financial aid that would allow 1/2 price youth and more margin for MTA. It woudl take a little work for some, but would be very helpful.

I have talked to many youth coaches, and the decisions for next year's shooting are being made now. The youth finding somewhere other than MTA will cost 2x the entries they lose to the youth.

Joe Nester

Scooterbum: which came first, the chicken or the egg?

For the past several years, decisions made by the BOD at the MTA have been short sighted, fear based financial decisions that have ultimately cost the MTA many customers, lost target sales and a lot of lost revenue. Once a business gets "caught in the swirl", it is tough to plug the drain.

I love the MTA homegrounds and have many fond memories from the past shoots. Shooters in Michigan need to step up, be positive, get involved and bring this beautiful MTA owned homegrounds back to one of the premier shooting facilities. It can be done in a relatively short amount of time with a change of mindset and a well thought business plan...

Roger

Well stated Roger, Mik

Roger,

Do you think that it is true that juvenile discounts do not generally pay dividends in the near term?

First things, you need to draw people, not just shooters.

Juniors shooting at discounts bring juniors, who bring parents, who pay rent to stay, fathers, mothers, grandparents, siblings... they like to buy things like t-shirts, towels, hats,

oh, no vendors for that.....guess you missed that chance for money.

Nothing in the kitchen....

what's with that??

I remember Kiner regaling me about the steak dinners at the MTA....

for those who didn't attend the GLG or state shoot, we had 2 people selling ear plugs, a stockman, a vendor of reloading supplies and shells. an ice cream trailer, and a mexican style food trailer...

need a new hull bag? nada, maybe a hat that says "2012 GLG"? nada, a shooting towel saying 2012 MTA State Shoot?? nada, well, 1, I embroidered it myself...

So, if anyone sees a business opportunity here, be sure at let a Director know!

Who are they? I don't know, the webpage hasn't been updated.

Tell our Delegate! I know that's Darrell Hayes!!!

He introduced himself!!

back to my beer...

Jim Chapman

Hell, Michigan

scooterbum: I have an answer but I do not think it is a valid discussion point...meaning, I think the decision to eliminate the youth discount is a "tripping over nickels" situation. Whether it is fretting over how many banks to use each day or 1/2 price youth targets, both of these are relatively small decisions. Here is the big picture-try to find ways for shooters to enjoy a great place to shoot, get back to throwing 2.5 million targets a year and many of these discussion points will just go away(and please do not tell me it is the economy).

My answer would be I do not believe investing in youth is a short term investment. I believe there comes a time when shooting must be left behind to begin a responsible life...education, career and family. I believe when youth reach a comfortable time in their adult life, the introduction to clay target shooting may pay long term dividends and bring them back to the sport-they may even bring one of their children along as well. I am totally in favor of offering 1/2 price targets to all of our youth shooters. Roger

I have heard numerous comments that the MTA bod better do something.People offer all kinds of suggestions which most would be helpful in making improvements but not the overall answer to correct the problem.We the shooters need to be active participants in the fix of the MTA not just the bod.

Maybe the board ought to check their attitude when members offer suggestions. Many suggestion have been offered only to be rudely rejected by some.

Don

Roger makes a great point, most of the juniors will have to stop shooting at some point to go to college, begin working, or build a family. The pro side to this is that we all love the sport and we all plan on coming back later in life. I think we need to work towards the little improvements in order to make the big picture better. Jason

This is a bad decision, short-sighted and probably based on a bad assumption of impact. I hope the MTA BOD rethinks and corrects it before Junior shooters and their coaches plan alternative sites. As coach for SCTP I can say I would vote to use another facility that wants Junior shooters at no profit. I had my Junior squads compete at other events at MTA, like spring team shoot as part of the season, that would also end. So in my view the policy more likely will not gain "the other half of the revenue" but will more likely "lose the remaining half" and worse really misses the bigger picture which is getting youth into our sport.

Please reconsider MTA BOD

Roger made that point only because I squeezed him on it.

Amen 20yard.

We will be shooting 2 venues this fall at half price youth and not attending the team shoot next weekend.

Joe

I think an excellent location would be Carleton...

Joe so you are protesting by keeping your kids home this weekend. Bad decision. Michigan is bad for doing what Ohio already does. Sounds like Obamaislm to me. I thought you were a little bigger than this.

There are several who are working to get the 1/2 price back.

Don

Sorry Big Don- definitely no disrespect meant, and I know there are lots that have given plenty to the success and welfare of the MTA. My dad tells me it was his favorite place to shoot back in his hayday in the 1970's. I have had plenty of fun there since starting 5 or 6 years ago, and I realize I am a guest there, not an active participant in the organization.

But I do feel strongly that the decision on youth pricing will not yield what whoever made that decision expects. And I feel I am qualified to voice an educated opinion because of the involvement I have with the youth shooters. But if we come at the new price, there is a chance that they say "See, I told you it would work." The only thing we have to speak with is our entry fees, and there are others that will not speak up on here, so I guess I'm talking for many youth.

I know you won't hold it against me for talking with our pocketbook, you have always been one to promote pro and con on many issues so a solution can be reached. If I complain, but do nothing about it, then that makes me a whiner. And that gets nothing accomplished.

I wish you and the others well that are trying to get the reduced rate back. If they do- we will definitely be back. If they don't, we'll accept that and discuss it and cross that bridge when we get there. Please convey our hope that they do.

Shoot well my friend,

Joe

Are you going to do the same with Fishburn??

Don

Interested shooters want to know, Joe....

Guys, we don't take the entire team to the Cardinal Center for all the events. The SCTP state championship has reduced target prices, and the Centerburg Invitational has reduced target prices, and those we attend as a team at the Cardinal, along with about 300 other youth. Jaquas has reduced prices and we attend several events there including the zone shoot, as well as other smaller clubs like Williams Co and St. Joe Michigan that give discounts. So you see, it does matter.

We are working on a large 2-day regional youth championship for mid July 2013 to be held at the Cardinal Center, and are looking at Midway USA Foundation as a partner that could take the target price down drastically for that event. Maybe even free like the Florida State shoot, but it will take some work.

I will be meeting with Mark J. in the very near future to discuss ideas on the Michigan group teaming up with Midway USA Foundation in some way to help the cause at Mason.

Joe

Thanks for the info., Joe.

Joe you never really answered the question about CC. It sounds like you still attend. Maybe not the whole team but quite a few. If so why don't you protest the shoot and not attend like you say you will in Mi? I don't have a dog in this fight just curious. I am on the BOD for another state. I won't go into what we do cause that has no bearing on this thread.

Donm, Sorry- tried to answer that in post above. Although I shoot most of the Cardinal Center events the past couple years, we do not take our youth trap group there to shoot, other than the 2 events that are reduced target prices. We do have 2 to 3 boys that compete there, not all events, but they are capable of competing for the Jr or Sub Jr win in each event. They are on their own for fees, not supported by our youth club funds. They also play options since they pay full price.

The real issue is we have x amount of dollars to support the kids entry fees on for the year. The parents, friends, coaches, and youth work hard to raise the money available for support. If they shoot full price targets, they get to shoot half as many targets. If they shoot half price targets, they get to shoot twice as many targets. 75% of the group members shoot to have fun, learn, get better, make friends, but mostly have fun. If they have to pay their own way at full price targets, they don't shoot very much. The kids will tell you they just like to shoot, and the more targets we can support them on, the more they like it.

We set a schedule and budget up each fall for the next year, and cost of the targets comes into play. We take a couple road trips a year to new small clubs, just for the fun of it. But I call and check if discounts are given to kids, and we give those priority. Dads usually go along and shoot full price targets.

I'm really not trying to be a thorn to MTA nor the many friends I have there, just voicing my opinion. I really like the place and the people. I wasn't even going to voice the opinion until a few other coaches contacted me about the cost change. We have shot every team event since the first year we started 6 years ago, and made the 90 mile drive. We have even camped for a lot of them and shot the whole program, and the kids shot a lot of it too.

A few of them will make this one and we will make sure they get some financial support. Just not going to pull the whole squad up there for this one. We'll see how it goes, hope for great weather and good scores, and we'll be back in the spring.

Also- although not protesting MTA or Cardinal, I am working with the coaches in Ohio to help reduce the youth cost at Cardinal so we can get more events with discounts. Our kids will shoot more if they are discounted. It will take several people working hard to bring in the off setting fees, but can be done. I brought in the sponsors this year for the first ever Ag Day at the Ohio State Shoot, with $9000 added money and 30 flats of shells. Some of those sponsors may be interested in supporting the youth shooters, I am working with them. Our next goal is involving Midway to help reduce target price at more events at Cardinal, and I'm real optimistic we can get that done.

Same thing can be done at Mason, IF they want the kids shooting to keep numbers up and recruit trapshooters for the future. At full price targets, those chasing All American will still shoot. Those shooting to just have fun will shoot, just not as much.

Wow, I get long winded just like my wife says!

Joe

Joe. Thank for all the info. As a Director of a state assoc. it is good to have a insight into what people are thinking around the country. I agree with you that without our kids shooting our sport is doomed. We only have a certain number of old people like myself.

Well your voices have been heard and paid attention to. I heard the board has revisited the issue and is considering throwing reduced price targets for the JR's. Now they have to cover costs so they arn't considering half price but somewhat close. Now lets hear a HURAH for those still fighting for this and board members considering it! Bill

covering expenses should be expected....

When you say JR's Bill, I assume you're not concerned about cost for your JR;)

Thanks for the input guys and hats off to the BOD for considering this. Will be a positive move!

Joe

Bob, No my Jr. is about to turn 30. This is just a campain for our 18 and younger bunch. :)

I hope they really do reconsider. It will save many shooters for the mta and ata. Covering their costs is to be expected. That's how half price targets started. Thank you to all who had a voice in this. I can say for myself and all the the Michigan juniors, that we really appreciate your efforts. Jason

I shot all 3 days of the fall team shoot didn't see many Juniors shooting. You know what else I didn't see any of the Aim or juniors working or scoring the events. I see volley ball, soccer teams working the shoots.

Just for the record im a supporter of half price targets but I do see the other side when you see kids in decked out golf carts with 12k shotguns asking for discounts on targets. If you're chasing points and traveling to mutable states to shoot to get them that is a finical decision your parents have made. The half price targets are for the kids that are struggling just to shoot. I travel to Williams co and watch the kids score and load the houses then they fill the last two squads to shoot for themselves.

Looks like a great program for kids and adults with each getting something out of it.

Just a reminder,ATA targets at the Reed City Sportsmans Club are always half price!!! for Jr's. and Sub Jr's. that is.

Williams County does it right and they have parents that care. Neither the parents or kids are afraid to dig in and help. They have earned the respect of the local trapshooters, so they get great support.

Joe Smoke and his crew should write a book "Junior Trapshooting for Dummies".

Aim/sctp kids scoring Hmmm interesting concept ...

I understand juniors still shot for 1/2. Where were they then???

School friday and work Sat. so they can buy that $12,000 gun everyone thinks they have.

Glad to hear their still getting paid to go to school! Hah!

I would bet that the $12K gun and decked out golf cart turns down the 1/2 price targets and plays options. That's not the youth I was going to bat for. And I'll admit there was some mis-information for me on the fall team, because the word was the BOD eliminated the youth discount, and we figured that meant with the new target year Sept. 1. I'm hearing now it is eliminated for the 2013 calendar year. So- I would have worked harder to get our youth there had I known that. My bad there, I can't answer for the rest.

Williams County Gun Club has been real supportive since we went to them several years ago and asked if the youth trapshooters could have first dibs on working the ATA shoots. So they get half price targets, and earn money to shoot on while they are not on the firing line. They know the game, and understand how important it is to do a good job, hustle, and pay attention. I really think it helps their shooting too, as they get to view first hand the mechanics and routines of some very respectable trap shooters. They also get to view several hundred targets leaving the trap, and can work on focus while they are scoring. The challenge comes when it's their turn to shoot, so we put them on the tail end of each event, and their dads as well as some super club members jump in the traps and chairs while they shoot. Fall Saturday shoots can be a booger to get everyone there, as they get older and have football films, cross country, county fairs and FFA that call for their attendance too, but we manage.

Not sure what the opportunities for getting the Michigan AIM/ SCTP shooters to work are- but I would think there are some shooting clubs up there that could step in. Hilsdale College also has a full trap shooting program, and checking with the coach from there might yield some extra credit for those students. It sure helps when the scorekeepers know the game.

Joe

Dave Price wrote in trap & Field that the Aim program on june 30th had 210 shooters participate in the MTA shoot for them. Im sure some were from out of state, but many must be from the area that could or should support their sport along with getting paid to be apart of it. If some of the kids or clubs was working the shoots and im not aware please step up and inform me of their participation.

Perhaps the MTA BOD should assign a person to recruit Michigan AIM/SCTP teams to help at the shoots?

Whats there to lose?

To gain: Consistant, knowledgable pullers/scorers, Familair faces at the trap line, Parents and relatives there too, Higher attendance, youth support, A positive move!

Joe I agree with the kids you're trying to help. What about Juniors playing option is that betting. You have to be 18 years old to buy a lotto ticket or bet in a casino.In my mind when I play options im betting I will be better than others is that something we should allow our kids participate in at their age.

Setterman, I think both need to help each other rather than battling each other. Working together to achieve a common goal of getting more shooters to the grounds along with building a future generation of trapshooters.

Lost and dead, no it's not gambling as your own ability decides the outcome unlike a game of chance...

So now we're building? What happened to the cut and run strategy? Make up my mind, will ya.

Lost, On the date of June 30th when the 200 plus kids shot they were all Michigan kids. The kids and the parents did all the loading and scoring for that shoot Aim and sctp paid for the awards. No help was hired. Michigan kids do work the trap clubs Oak hill, Howell ,Linden, Fennville, Hastings, are just some I know for sure.At the fall team shoot I saw the kids selling raffle tickets to help support the clubs. Not just the kids the whole club yep clubs that adults shoot at. I say we need to keep that support alive. One thing I feel we are missing this is not just about the kids.It is about the future of the sport. at the Michigan team shoot I saw two teams of new presubs I hate to see them get priced out before they fall in love with the game.

Little M high school wrestling would get more interesting with options. Bowling wouldn't be bad ether.

Dead and forever lost, suggest it to your school board. Good way to get rid of pay to play...

M I think your boys will have a chance this week.Who are they playing again?

There playing U of M ..!!!!

U of M will win.!!!

Lost & dead There are as you stated 210 Aim shooters along with all of the club shooters. I personally know many of them and the best of them. The most expensive gun in that whole group is a single blaser combo that was used so maybe $7500. That person won 2nd in the 50k ladies challenge and used some of the money to get it. After that it is a bunch of beretta and browning combos, so to say that we are carrying $12000+ plus guns is just not right. The exception to that is some of the kids from out of state who have new p guns, k guns, etc. some of us have golf carts. Those of us that do have one use them daily at home. My family personally has a polaris ranger and we use it almost everyday hauling out winter wood and other tasks.

Also, no kid from michigan plays options at the mta. Once again those are the out of state shooters. We all work at our home clubs and the mta. Myself and kyle d worked shoot offs at the glg one night. We all helped at the aim shoot at no cost to the mta. Most of the kids work a lot at their home clubs, just to help out. I have mentioned to a few of the directors that some of us would be willing to work at the mta. Jason

So what's the latest and greatest here? Any new news? Spring is just around the corner already.

JK

Put in my name last September to serve on board have not heard a word since. ? Your guess is as good as mine. Bill

I'll be there for the Spring team, GLG, State shoot and the Fall team.

Jerry B.

Bill, I'll ask Fred J Sunday at Howell, what's up....

I suggest the limo service cost to transport you to meetings might be a sticking point lol

Jim

Jim, isn't he working on some new wheels that'd get him there in a hop, skip, and a short jump?

could be, but, My information is 'no joy' for Bill Grill, much the same for Keith Heeg and Jerry Glison...

I understand the open Directors spots remain unfilled by competent, experienced, resourceful individuals.

By the way, anyone seen the 2013 match schedule print out yet? seems late this year.. come on, it ain't rocket science!...

Jim