It Is Time To Ask The Question!Most Recent Posts First
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| Posted By | Posted Date/Time |
| WS-1 | 31-Jul-12 - 10:01 PM ET |
| yakimaman | 01-Aug-12 - 07:33 AM ET |
| gdbabin | 01-Aug-12 - 07:38 AM ET |
| Old Cowboy | 01-Aug-12 - 11:16 AM ET |
| Garry | 01-Aug-12 - 11:23 AM ET |
| wolfram | 01-Aug-12 - 12:11 PM ET |
| larryjk | 01-Aug-12 - 12:23 PM ET |
| postmastertim | 01-Aug-12 - 02:29 PM ET |
| kolardude | 01-Aug-12 - 03:05 PM ET |
| shot410ga | 01-Aug-12 - 06:20 PM ET |
| bigdogtx | 01-Aug-12 - 07:55 PM ET |
| GW22 | 01-Aug-12 - 08:29 PM ET |
| halfmile | 02-Aug-12 - 07:34 AM ET |
| John Galt | 02-Aug-12 - 09:03 AM ET |
| WS-1 | 03-Aug-12 - 07:31 PM ET |
| Barrelbulge (Pa.) | 03-Aug-12 - 08:59 PM ET |
| WS-1 | 03-Aug-12 - 10:02 PM ET |
| Barrelbulge (Pa.) | 04-Aug-12 - 09:07 AM ET |
| birdogs | 04-Aug-12 - 09:29 AM ET |
| John Galt | 04-Aug-12 - 01:44 PM ET |
| b12 | 04-Aug-12 - 02:26 PM ET |
| WS-1 | 07-Aug-12 - 11:46 PM ET |
| G550 | 08-Aug-12 - 12:10 AM ET |
| John Galt | 08-Aug-12 - 12:20 AM ET |
| G550 | 08-Aug-12 - 09:50 AM ET |
| WS-1 | 08-Aug-12 - 09:55 AM ET |
| wolfram | 08-Aug-12 - 11:02 AM ET |
| Brian in Oregon | 08-Aug-12 - 03:21 PM ET |
| Brian in Oregon | 08-Aug-12 - 05:56 PM ET |
| gdbabin | 08-Aug-12 - 06:51 PM ET |
| rpeerless | 08-Aug-12 - 07:06 PM ET |
| timberfaller | 08-Aug-12 - 08:27 PM ET |
| G550 | 08-Aug-12 - 08:39 PM ET |
| blackfoot | 08-Aug-12 - 08:41 PM ET |
| WS-1 | 08-Aug-12 - 08:54 PM ET |
| Brian in Oregon | 08-Aug-12 - 10:05 PM ET |
| rpeerless | 09-Aug-12 - 12:03 PM ET |
| Stl Flyn | 09-Aug-12 - 04:33 PM ET |
| WS-1 | 09-Aug-12 - 05:55 PM ET |
| gdbabin | 09-Aug-12 - 06:04 PM ET |
| WS-1 | 09-Aug-12 - 06:13 PM ET |
| jbbor | 09-Aug-12 - 10:29 PM ET |
| WS-1 | 11-Aug-12 - 09:03 PM ET |
| ImpalaBob | 12-Aug-12 - 09:54 AM ET |
| WS-1 | 12-Aug-12 - 02:22 PM ET |
| WS-1 | 15-Aug-12 - 04:32 PM ET |
| rpeerless | 15-Aug-12 - 06:38 PM ET |
| rpeerless | 15-Aug-12 - 07:35 PM ET |
| gailmk67 | 15-Aug-12 - 08:15 PM ET |
| WS-1 | 15-Aug-12 - 09:59 PM ET |
Many of us have sons or daughters, nieces or nephews, uncles, aunts or even parents who serve in one of the branches of the United States Military.
If they were given an order to fire on an American citizen, would they do it or would they turn their weapons on the commander giving the order? If they had to choose between duty and family, which one would they pick?
We have the right to know...don't we?
Does Kent State ring a bell?
What is the motivation behind your stupid question?
Guy Babin
Personally I think it's an interesting question. Within the answer lies the reason why the Soviet Union fell while Communist China did not.
The wordings of the current oath of enlistment and oath for commissioned officers are as follows:
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).
"I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
All military personnel are required to obey LAWFUL orders. A general order or regulation is lawful unless it is contrary to the Constitution, the laws of the United States, or lawful superior orders or for some other reason is beyond the authority of the official issuing it.
I would expect them to fire on US citizens if they were ordered to. At some point I would also expect a significant number of soldiers to start questioning their orders and eventually even go AWOL and fall in with the citizenry.
Horrible thing to ponder but a good possibility given the likelyhood of a financial collapse.
yakimaman, I remember that Kent State was the end of "students" thinking the national guard or other uniformed services had to take the "shit" they were being subjected to. I seem to remember that after the Kent State shooting most of those events disappeared.
Kent state was before my time, but I can tell you this question would occasionally come up while I served as an MP from '87-'96. The answer was always the same from everyone I worked with, no we would not fire on unarmed civilians. Riot control was a different story, common sense tells you not to throw rocks at the guy with the riot baton in his hand.
It is my belief that our soldiers would not fight on the side of a treasonous president, not in this country. I hope we never have to find out, so vote against Obama in November to save our country.
The Nuremberg trials judged that every soldier is responsible to himself, his moral code, and society's moral code as to what orders he carries out. He cannot be ordered, or forced, even under threat of death to carry out orders from a Superior which would over ride the codes noted above. Essentially, what the court said is that, you will be judged guilty if you carry out orders that result in death(s)that a reasonable man would determine to be morally wrong. These rulings over ride all national laws concerning war.
WS-1,,,,,why don't you ask YOUR relatives in the military???? How would ANYONE here have an inkling of an idea as to whether they would or not,,,,,I think some paranoia is good, but this seems way too out there......
I nominate this post for the winner of 2012
LOL, Kit - how do you expect Obama to get us all into Jessie Ventura's concentration camps if the military isn't willing to shoot us?
-Gary
Kent State was viewed as a case of the cannon fodder objecting to Viet Nam.
It was the catalyst for the US to cease operations there.
I believe the administration would have continued in Viet Nam if that had not happened. It was, after all, the perfect war, even better than Korea. Billions in profits were made.
Public outrage over Kent State added to anti war sentiment and eventually led to Congress defunding the war effort 4 years later, and after prisoner exchanges and other foofaraw we left.
HM
musketman calling someone a nut- what an oxymoron, with or without the oxy.
Kolardude,
From the reactions to my first post on this thread, it appears that the Obama apologists went double jointed jumping through their rectums trying to identify themselves. Why do you think they would want to do that?
Musketman, it would be very easy for him to disappear. All you have to do is quit logging on here. You'll never see or hear of him again. Mike.
Musketman,
If you quit logging on here, as Mike suggested, you wouldn't have anything to endure but the callouses on your pinky and you can probably "handle" that.
Musketman, your comment'Tis true but then I would have to endure your dumb daily comments. you are also part of the smell.'
If you quit logging onto this site you would not have to endure any of this. You would not be a part of it. Are you so stupid that you could not figure that one out? Mike.
What the hell is wrong with you guys? There is a subject to this thread which, after the first couple of posts disappears and is replaced with persona attacks and name calling. Can't we stick to any subject?
Also, I wonder how brave these name callers would be if they had the chance to say these things face to face. Instead they hide behind the anonymity of the Internet and their "nom de plume".
Please, a little more tolerance AND, If you can't stick to the subject or can't be civil, don't say anything!
Bird dog, let me point out that you also didn't stick to the subject of the thread so you have no room to rant. In any case, threads are like conversations, they tend to go off in many directions. If that's a problem for you, perhaps you should start another thread regarding any subject of your choosing, just don't be surprised if it wanders off into places you didn't intend.
The last statements in the code (SO HELP ME GOD )would leave every service man to make his determination of what is moraly right or wrong. This country has a elected president that does not believe in God. Therefore the presidents order need not be followed. An oath to this nation is that we will follow the laws of God and then mans laws setforth by our eleceted officals. I need to go back and study the Federal codes within the laws but to my recolition the president or any other official of governance cannot bring the military to bare on any american civilian. However this was tested durring the Waco incident to see what the reaction would be from the civil public. Slick Willie Clinton and Janet Reno got by without hardly a smutt. There would have been many more test if it weren't for 9-11 which rallied the americans to unite. Now that we have a Muslim faith President that has no alegence to god or american law but only to Ala and black panthers. The questioned asked is not only very important but it puts anyone who reads it to look within their soul and evaluate what you stand for. Also George Washington stated, When you take God out of government then you will no longer have a country. Wild Bill Remember what our forfathers said. Its times like these that try mens souls. Thomas Jefferson
OK, let me re-phrase the question.
What if a platoon of IRS agents came to your home and demanded that you hand over your weapons? What then? Maybe the Obama apologists will be kind enough to answer first.
Not totally sure but before the US mil can be used in the USA martial law has to be declared. They can then be deployed (New Orleans). It's any mans guess as to what he would do in that situation. We have a higher quality Army now than in the 70's. The Guard was not properly trained to deal with riot control at Kent State.
I do not agree that Kent state was a catalyst for the the end of the war. I was at Pleiku as an AF FAC in May 1970 during the buildup for the border incursion into Cambodia. I flew extensively in Cambodia and Laos. The draw down of in country forces had already begun. We had been briefed. I tried to extend my tour 6 months and was denied.
RCH
I could be wrong but don't think that the US military was used in New Orleans. I think it was the National Guard unter the command of the LA Governor.
John.... New Orleans may very well have been all La. Guard troops. Just used it as a recent example of martial law. In the past a state governor had nearly absolute control over the Guard. Since 9/11, constitutional or not, the Feds (President) can assume control and mobilize all Guard and Reserve forces. The Feds have always had a high level of influence since no state can afford the budget required to field and train these units.
RCH
Barfin,
Ignore the question and attack the person? You sound like David Axelrod.
So, let me re-phrase the question. What are you going to do when a company of Dept. of Homeland Security .40 cal. toting stormtroopers starts going door-to-door in your neighborhood? Are you going to rat on your neighbor? Are you going to hide in the closet?
Or, are YOU going to come out with "6-guns" blazing?
You could extend the possibilities by considering what would the response be to massive rioting and looting in urban areas due to a collaspe of our monetary system (read no mas food stamps).
In that scenario (which is very probable) I would completely expect federal troops to come in and take control of the situation and these guys will be fully armed. Still think there is no way our soldiers will fire on US citizens?
Several posters on here like to bring up the possibility of an armed resistance to our socalist government - does anyone think for a second that would be allowed to happen with out intervention from Federal troops? No matter how much we admire those guys and gals in uniform right now, they are trained to follow orders and they are well armed.
"....In the past a state governor had nearly absolute control over the Guard. Since 9/11, constitutional or not, the Feds (President) can assume control and mobilize all Guard and Reserve forces...."
Uh, not quite, state governors have NOT had "absolute control" over their state national guard units for a long time.
During the Reagan administration, the Pentagon issued orders deploying the Oregon National Guard to the Caribbean for exercises. Oregon's governor issued orders that they were not to participate, but the feds said that their authority overrode the governor. The case went to SCOTUS, who upheld the feds because the National Guard is no longer a state militia but is in fact a federal militia.
Yea and what if Martians came to earth with their ray guns...... or the apes get pissed and revolt?
Are you a tough guy WS-1..... or full of rhetoric and BS?
My gut tells me you are the latter curled up in a fetal position when the caka hits the fan.
BS Flag fully raised.
Guy D. Babin
USN Ret
Brian could not open the link you posted...so hope this isn't duplication...
It is my understanding that the so called 'anticipated Army' was to be a coalition of UN assembled troops thus it would be foreign troops on US soil.
That changes the picture. This was in regard to the anticipation of confiscation of firearms with regard to the UN treaty and the order was to be shoot anyone who refused to surrender their arms is how I think it was supposed to go. Read an article about this but can't remember exactly how it was worded, or what on forum it was posted. Possibly WND.
Kent State
The magazine, Readers Digest, had a very informative article a few years after the Kent State riots.
After the investigations were all over, what was discovered was the "Communist Student Union" which was "allowed" to be on campus HAD fired upon the National Guards First, who in turn returned fire.
The CSU was very active days pryer to the riots and had a big hand it getting them organized.
The road this country is going down at present, the LEO's and military personal I know personally, Will Not fire upon "citizens" they will in turn use their training to deal with the "traitors".
Brian....That's why I said nearly absolute. My frame of reference is further back than the 80's.
Will a fighter pilot today shoot down a US flagged passenger aircraft if ordered?
RCH
Stupid!All you have to remember is that the lamp is lit!
Freemen!
Guy,
Are you going to vote for Obama again?
"Will a fighter pilot today shoot down a US flagged passenger aircraft if ordered? "
If ordered to do so, such as in the context of an aircraft taken over by hijackers intending to use it as a weapon, like on 9-11? Yes. Absolutely.
With regard to the tragedy at Kent State... If my memory serves me correctly, there was film footage of various demonstrations going on in different parts of the country at different times. It was pointed out that the same 'so-called' students near the front of the demonstrations were photographed at different college/university demonstrations in different states throughout the year. The question was posed of how did these same students appear at all these demonstrations around the country if they were enrolled at any one college or university and who financed their travel? The same faces were circled in various photos and some were identified as "agitators".
Being a college student myself at the time I recall seeing the films.
Is this not kind of a pointless question? If it really came down to that scenario, I think you would have more worries than you could handle.
User,
Ignore the question and attack the person. You sound like David Axelrod, too.
Are you going to vote for Obama again?
Gun ownership has to do with one thing.....LIBERTY. Say, are you a communist?
Say, are you a jerk? You wanna shoot somebody?
Ignore and attack...you're just another Axelrod. So, are you or are you not going to vote for Obama again?
I believe we had a Cival War that answered that question. Jimmy Borum
So, let me re-phrase the question. Let's say you were working in the Gibson Guitar Co. factory last year, and a 30 man S.W.A.T. team busted in with weapons drawn and confiscated all of your imported finger boards. Would you fight the Obama administration in court and lose about 4 million dollars in legal fees or would you lose hundreds of thousands of dollars paying attorney's fees to settle out of court for a crime you were never charged with?
Let us hope & pray that THIS question never has to be answered.
Bob,
That's exactly what happened. Please Google the Department of Justice, Office of Public Affairs Report dated Monday, August 6, 2012. You will note that there is no mention of the enormous legal fees the company paid to reach a settlement outside of court. You will also note that there is no mention of the episode during the raid where the CEO was held at gunpoint with his staff in a 4 room office suite. Nowhere in the report does it say that the entire labor force working in the 3 plants that day was forced at gunpoint to leave the buildings and go outside into the parking lots. Neither does it mention that the plant's surveillance cameras were seized.
The Gibson Guitar Corp. case is a perfect example of a Communist Dictatorship at work. When I started this thread, I was looking for Obama sympathizers, socialists, and apologists who have given up their lust for Liberty. I succeeded in my quest. This country is full of liars like Barack Obama and his henchmen, David Axelrod and Harry Reid. Sometimes they hide behind their careers, sometimes behind abusive words and prevarication, but most of the time they just hide because they are afraid to admit to being who they really are.
It doesn't take a conspiracy theorist to invent a story like The Gibson Story. It happened right here in the good old USA. And yet, there are still people who attack me personally when I ask the question, Will You Solemnly Swear to Preserve, Protect and Defend The Constitution of The United States against All Enemies, Both Foreign and Domestic.
Guns aren't about hunting, they are about Liberty.
Hey You Communists Out There,
So now the Social Security Administration and The National Weather Service are about to place enormous orders for .357 hollow point rounds. What are they going to do with the ammo???? Shoot holes in SS Checks? Shoot some thunder clouds? Are they going to join the NRA?
What will they do with this ammunition? Come on you commies, answer the question.
Although not a "commie", let me venture a cynical guess. This would be the ammo for the aforementioned foreign "enforcers and gun confiscators" so they don't have to carry it with them? That is provided the info is true of course.
I read or misread, 750 million rounds per agency, anyone? That's kinda enormous for agencies that need it for what?
Wow! I cannot believe how many times that I have seen threads on this forum that start with a simple question and end in a battle of name calling and BS rhetoric not pertaining to the question. Most of these types of threads should be prefaced with the statement: "Are there any adults on this forum that would like to discuss an issue with me that I feel is important to bring to the table? If not please disregard."
There are some individuals on this site that although sometimes entertaining, are often exhausting! The moderators of this forum need to place a couple of you folks in "time out" for a while.(sorry for babbling off topic)
BTW... With all do respect; If we do not think that the powers to be cannot find some armed forces personnel that, when directed by our government, would fire on unarmed citizen if ordered to do so you all are fooling yourselves.
Remember the national guard not only firing on the students at Kent State, but also firing on WWI vets, in Washington during the depression under the direction of good ole D. McArthur. And how about the American citizens that were terrorized then executed in Waco, Tx for over a month by several armed government official(be it FBI, National Guard, or regular military). And how about the incident on Ruby Ridge. In each one of these cases, an/or several American citizens Constitutional rights were violated.
I guess there are some people that choose to "turn the other cheek" if something doesn't directly affect them. If it does not affect you now you can bet that it will in the future if you keep ignoring it. JMHO
Regards, Joe
Barfin,
Without reservation, I am going to accept your two posts as authentic and accurate. I appreciate the clarification.
I went overboard with my post suggesting that the SSA and the NWS were part of a greater conspiracy. It is obvious that I was wrong. I apologize.
Respectfully,
Kit Thomas The owners, administrators and moderators of the Trapshooters.com have no obligation to keep objectionable messages off this forum. It is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners, administrators or moderators of Trapshooters.com Discussion Forum will be held responsible for the content of any message. The owners, administrators and moderators of the Trapshooters.com Discussion Forum reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason at our sole discretion. However, the owners, administrators and moderators are not monitoring or editing the site and are under no obligation to police it for items that some persons may find objectionable. [ Back ] To Register for full access to reply and create threads Click Here!
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