I do as you do jbmi. If the scorer gives me one that I think I missed I'll tell him I think I missed it, if he insists he saw a chip then I'll let it stand. OTOH I won't call it on another squad member, like you say "I guess we just have different standards".

Since we don't have trained and experienced scorekeepers, Trapshooting has to rely on the honesty and integrity of the players.

Trapshooting is more akin to golf than baseball.

What Old Cowboy said, ask the scorer if he saw a piece...

I find it more frequent in doubles where they are rushed quite a bit more..

The magic words. "I know I saw a piece."

If the scorer says that it's good!

The scorer does have the best seat in the house.

I would rather shoot a 99 and lose honestly than to shoot a 100 and win by a give-me. I too will and have questioned the scorer even when it goes against my favor. As many have said, this is a game/sport of honesty and integrity. Of course there are those who lack both.

I was on post 1 at the PA Keystone, and shooting those (discontinued) bright red wads. The scorer didn't call "lost", at a clearly missed target, and I turned and told her it was definitely lost and that she must have seen the red wad. Glenn Kelley, who was on post 5 also turned and confirmed that it was not hit, and the target was properly scored. I have a few remaining shells loaded with those wads; but don't use them for anything but practice.

best....mike

If the scorer says he/she saw a chip, its a dead bird. They have the best seat in the house. Shooters not seeing the chip does not mean it wasn't there

My wife has been scoring so I don't open my mouth about anything. Although it was kindly pointed out to me that both times I ran 25 (in my life) - which included my first in registered targets this past weekend - she had been scoring. :)

If we see a small chip we try to point it out. I have had fellow squad mates point out my chips I did not see. I don't want any score that isn't correct.

Jim

The rules clearly state who makes the final determination whether a target is dead or lost and it's not the shooters. All shooters can do is state what they observed if they disagree with the ref. The ref can reverse his/her call but doesn't have to. A club official can't reverse a dead/lost call either unless he was present at the time and was acting as a referee.

If one doesn't like the ref's performance, they can always ask for a replacement.

Shooters are not required, and sometimes not able, to determine if they missed a target. And, the other shooters are not scorekeepers. So, where do we go from here?

I worked as a scorer for many years in my youth.

The scorer has the final ruling in any questionable situation. Discuss it with them if you like, but do it politely, and before the station move.

Hits/losses need to be discussed ASAP, not @ the end of the round.

If a club does not have experienced/trained scorers, shame on them!!

I am not saying don't have integrity/honesty, but that the questionable call needs to be settled ASAP, and a determination made by the scorer that was observing. Period.

Mike

I don't have the sharpness of vision that I once did, but sometimes I forget that fact. More than once I have been positive that I missed a bird and had it scored a hit. Always, it seems it was my mistake and not the scorers, according to linemates. One more for "the best seat in the house". Bill

It's nice to see so many people would be honest and not take a freebie. Maybe there's hope for us after all.

P-l-e-a-s-e

ALWAYS stop after your shot if you think the scorer called a lost target you hit.

NEVER stop if you "think" you missed but "ALWAYS" ask the scorer on the station move.

NEVER try to change a target call from a hit to a loss for another squad mate UNLESS you are asked by an official!!!!!! ALWAYS!!!!

Just good squad etiquette

GS

So, what some of you are saying, if I KNOW I missed the bird because my flinch placed my shot 10' above and behind the bird, but the new kid scorer was thinking about his girlfriend and marked it as good, you keep it because "he has the best seat in the house" Shame on you!! I bet you're also the first one to scream at the kid ( who has the best seat in the house) for calling a loss when you saw that small chip fall off, you should not have it both ways.

I always call out "dead bird" if I see a chip and the puller makes an error in calling a bird. Best time to make a correction is immediately. What sux sometimes is the puller may be slow in his/her decision and the next shooter shoots before the puller has it scored. Many times these people don't get (any)enough breaks and work in inclimate weather for minimum pay.

jbmi,

You are not reading the responses correctly. If you know you missed a target, and it was scored dead, talk to the puller, either right away, or before the station move.

If the scorer wasn't paying attention, he most likely won't argue the point, and your squad mates can back you up if asked.

There are people that will keep silent if they know they missed. Most will not.

The main point is that the scorer NEEDS to have the final decision.

Target takers are everywhere. If you think you missed a target ASK THE SQUAD if none of them saw a piece instruct the scorer to call it lost. After all the scorer scored it dead and some of them will not admit a mistake. I have had scores say that they have special glasses (NY home grounds) and can see pieces that we can't see.

You shoot this game for any length of time and you will experience targets that you thought you have missed that someone on your squad and/or the referee will call dead because they saw a piece that you did not. The shooter's point of view is the least valid in these cases. Squadmates, however are a valuable resource at this time.

I agree with ebsurveyor. Rely on your squadmates. It is correct and valid to ask if anyone saw a piece on a target you thought you've missed. It is also very important that after a disputed target is ruled upon by referee and squadmates, that the permant record (scoresheet) is scored properly. This is all a part of the shooter's responsibility. A disputed target can be ruled lost by shoot management if the scoresheet is ambiguous regarding the result of the shot. The words "lost" or "dead" must be marked on the scoresheet when a target is overuled or the target may be considered lost by anyone checking the scoresheet after the event is concluded.

Shooter's responsibility also applies to all "good" squadmates. Watch as many targets as you can and be a resource to help make the right call when a dispute arises. After an event, check the brush strokes on the scoresheet and be sure you scores are recorded accurately. Post one shooters who sign the scoresheet can check for this also, but each shooter is responsible for their own scores.

Scorekeepers can get out of time and make errant marks on scoresheets that are interpreted as disputed targets even when they were not. They also may not call the word "lost" or not call it loudly enough so the shooter can hear it. Many unusual events can occur that can create ambiguity in the recording of scores. Don't accept targets you haven't earned but be sure to get rewarded for every target you've broken. We pay too much money and work too hard to break each target and as we all know, each target is extremely important. Don't let the rules designed to deal with ambiguous scorekeeping get in the way of the truth.

Play Dead

What do you do when the scorer does not call "lost" on a target and then at the end of a round you have a 24 instaed of the 25? This happened this past weekend at our State AIM Shoot. I was coaching and keeping our own score behind the sidewalk. One of my first year shooters shot a 25 straight and the scorer had her down as a 24. The scorer had been calling Lost targets loud enough I could hear very clearly. At the end of the round, I walked to the scorer as I always do, to make sure I had the same score on my sheet that the scorer had. When I questioned the lost target she said the shooter had missed the target so therefore it was "lost". The other shooters said they had seen the target clearly broken but since the scorer had not called "lost" they could not protest the call.

What made it even worse, my shooter did shoot a 25 straight on the next round and the mess up in the previous round ended up costing my shooter her 50 straight.

I'll second "the best seat in the house" explanation for the scorer. There have been times when I thought there was a gimme but squad mates told me, no you chipped that one. I think there are times when your gun, the wad and the bird just line up the right way and hide the chip. In my experience, it's usually on post 1 to 3 where I miss my own chips.

Last week-end at a registered shoot. Shooting 50 per trap. One of our squad members had two different targets that both myself and another shooter on the squad thought were lost targets, yet the scorer counted them as dead. The shooter who I am sure missed the targets did not speak up, he took the targets. This was on Saturday. On Sunday, I had a case were I was sure that I missed the 24th target, and the score counted it as dead.I(being the squad leader)said something about it. I even asked other shooters. one said he did not see the shot and could not say one way or the other. Another shooter said he saw the target change direction but no piece come off of it. A different shooter told me to take it, that there are enough targets that I have and will chip that I will not get credit for. If I see a chip from another shooters target, I raise my hand, wait until it is my turn, then say something to the score. I will not interrupt the harmony of the squad until it is my turn to shoot. I think I was given a target and do not feel right about it. I want to earn every target I get. If I chip one and it does not get called, then I need to aim better the next time so that there is no doubt.

Jim B.