Play Dead:

You're right, people just don't take the time to understand the rules. Funny thing is at the shoot you mention, you'd think they would have ruled it a ftf and shoot over because of the doubling, or maybe a lost pair if they didn't believe it really doubled. But it seems they came up with the only result that was NOT actually an option under the rules. Go figure.

Actually, the scorer might not be paying much attention and didn't even know about the doubling, and the shooter might have been afraid it was his fault and facing a lost pair, so he just kept his mouth shut figuring he'd get one dead anyway.

dickgtax:

Now I know you deal in facts, so looking at your issue the result is the same as the wad stuck in barrel situation.

Pull trigger while attempting to shoot at target #1 with empty barrel = a ftf. No reasonable disagreement can be made with that statement. That ends the discussion, ftf on first attempted target is a pair over.

Now, some will argue that the entire squad and scorer are not smart enough to notice whether the misfire was on the first attempt, and therefore the shot that went off was the first attempt. I don't buy it, perception doesn't change the facts, and if the facts can be determined, the pair get shot over. The rule doesn't involve first shot and second shots, it's first "attempted" shot.

"I was on a doubles squad that on two occasions experienced a shooter who's gun doubled at the first target. Both pair were scored on the result of the first bird followed by a "Lost" second target."

You didn't say but did anyone on the squad question the call. If so what was the explanation for the lost pair.

The reason I ask is for the same reason I ask hmb about his statement. If the first shot in doubles is missed and the second is not fired on. It is a lost pair unless there is a FTF involved in either shot. If there is a FTF on the first target the pair is reshot.

If there is no FTF on the first shot it is what ever the results of that shot is the same for the second shot if not fired at it is a loss. If they are scored as lost unless there was a FTF on the second in which case there wouldn't have been a second shot.

Also it may have been interpreted as firing twice at the same target.

Bob Lawless

OK, seems the OP is happy with the answers, so now I can stir the pot.

The NSCA (sporting clays) rules are better.

It's either an equipmemt malfunction ( do over twice 2 per event) or shooter error = LOST, each and every time.

A flinch, just like trapping the trigger, leaving the safety on, failing to see a legal target = shooter error = LOST.

In no case would a shooter be allowed to score two X's with 3 shells, like the ATA doubling situation where the first target is scored dead if it's hit. Really? You kill it with 2 & 1/4 ounces of shot, then get to throw another 1 & 1/8 at the second target?. How is that fair to the other shooters? And not only is it dead with 2 shells, you now have the advantage of purposely missing it on the redo. Do the rules make it clear that you have to fairly attempt the first target, or can you point your gun, say, half way between the pair so as to have an easier shot on the second target?

On the other hand, in SC it isn't scored lost if it's missed either. It's very simple; every teenaged scorekeeper gets it... nothing is ever established on a true pair unless a fair pair is fairly attempted. That is, until you've used your 2 alibis. On the third malfunction it's a lost pair, even if the first bird was hit. And how is that unfair to anybody? You had an equipment problem on either the first or second shot? OK, no score. Repeat the pair for score.

Mike, this ain't sporting clays and we don't use their rules. If shooting SC makes you happy, that's where you oughta be, not here tellin us how great their rules are.

GneJ

The sporting clays rules are stupid and should take a lesson from trap. The failure to fire rule was instituted to eliminate the time delay and safety issue of a puller having to walk over to the shooter who has a loaded gun and inspect it, actually putting his finger over the trigger to see it fires. Sporting clays has kept this dangerous practice, which is exacerbated by the fact that the shooters box is often small, cramped, with poor footing.

A"fair pair in the air" added the element of luck, since the shooter could miss a target, and get another chance simply because his gun or shells didn't work. There is even a suspicion that some shooters might have the ability to create a malfunction in their gun intentionally when it would benefit them.

The option of two shots at a single target has the disadvantage that the scorer may be looking at the second target when the shooter fires a second time at the first, and not see the shot. In trap, the scorer would certainly have looked away because the second shot is often taken in a second or less after the first target is shot at.

The other point raised about breaking two targets with three shells is just a misunderstanding on Mr. Campbells part. A gun that doubles is a malfunction on the first shot and does not count. If allowable, the pair is repeated.

In trap, you can refuse an illegal or freak target, but if you shoot at it the result counts. You have your choice. In sporting clays, it doesn't matter if you shoot it, don't shoot it, break it, or miss it -it goes over.

870: If the shooter had a malfunction on the first target and had exceeded his allowable FTF, wouldn't he be allowed to shoot at the second target. If he didn't he would lose both targets. Doesn't he have the right to refuse to invoke the FTF on the first target, and treat it as a lost target? While I know that firing two shots intentionally at the same target results in a lost target even if it's broken, is a squib load considering firing a shot?

I shoot American skeet, international skeet, international trap, English sporting clays, 5-stand and American trap.

I'm an ATA member and competitor and I like to be familiar with the rules. Some rules are better than others. I do find it kind of sad that the French have sporting rules figured out way more than the Texans have. And since the ATA has been around 100 years longer, I also find it sad that their rules suffer, too.

Must be I had a special invite like everybody else or I wouldn't be posting on this board. Happy to be here.

P.S. All the hippies I know are at least 60 yrs old....just the right age to take up trap.

Well Mike, as always, the ATA offers you the opportunity to get voted as a delegate and make a difference....

Mike, Yeah, and I have been a hippie longer than I have been a trapshooter. (since 1970) What part of Texas are ya in? We may be neighbors.

GneJ

"The other point raised about breaking two targets with three shells is just a misunderstanding on Mr. Campbells part. A gun that doubles is a malfunction on the first shot and does not count. If allowable, the pair is repeated."

OK, help me out here! Is that right? The gun went bang on the first shot ( then the second shell went off) and the target broke. He fired the first shot, but couldn't fire the second shot, and the FTF rule is applied to the first shot?

The problem is, the ATA calls doubling a Failure To Fire, which leaves open the question of FTF on which target?. If it were called a "malfunction on the first shot" it would be a lot clearer.

The rule (VII-D-3) clearly states a doubling is a FTF and the fereree should score accordingly. But VII-D doesn't spell out whether the FTF is applied to first or second shot. And my little pea brain says it must be applied to second shot. In which case, the rule says the first target is scored dead or lost depending on whether it was hit.

Ambiguous at best.

I just saw it applied as I stated it just last week....maybe in error. A couple of squad members and the scorekeepr huddled up and the 2-shot break was scored as dead bird, and since the FTF was on the second target, repeat the pair to establish the second target.

It's not an uncommon scenario and I'd really like to understand the rule.