i was there and targets were tough. White flyer stepped up and took the heat for the differance in targets. they stated that they needed to try something differant due to the problems that they had in kansas with breakage. Hopefully Nebraska will get pat traps and try to save their shoot. Talked with many fine folks who say they will not go back until they get pat's put in.

LETTER FROM PHIL MURRAY: To: White Flyer Distributors Gun Club Managers/ Personnel From: White Flyer Targets Subject: New White Flyer Targets

Hi All:

Recently you may have noticed receiving orders from White Flyer/ Webb City in which a memo was attached to each pallet stating “Tooling Change was made on these targets and readjustment of the splitter or knife may be necessary”. What basically occurred was that the first step of the target was lowered by about fifteen-thousandths. In talking to gun clubs in the Midwest that have received these ‘newer’ targets, adjustments have been minimal, but the shooters have remarked that these ‘newer’ targets are different in that they ‘smoke’ better than the ‘older’ WF targets! Rumors started that WF mixed bio ingredients into this target and this is why it ‘smokes’ a light, grayish color. Other rumors were that the dimensions, plus weights, have been changed and it is a completely new target. Quite frankly, a lot of misinformation is going on out there and we felt it necessary to contact you and ask you to please pass this memo onto your customers & gun clubs.

First and foremost, this ‘newer’ target is different in only two areas, the height of the first step and its composition. They still undergo a 27-step process of quality control to measure weights and concentricity- the specs which are weight mandated by the ATA and other organizations have NOT changed.

The main difference and the thing that shooters are commenting about is the fact that when centered, instead of the ‘black sootball’, you get a whitish, gray picture of the smoked target. This is where the only change has been made to this target- a different style of pitch is now being used that is lighter in color and therefore causes the target to ‘smoke’ whitish, gray. Outside of this pitch change, no other aspect, other than the very first step, are any different. Extensive testing has been done on these ‘newer’ targets and in our testing, we found that they actually break/ smoke better that their older AA pitch counterpart. There is no question that when smoked, against a dark background, they could be mistaken for our biodegradable target that smokes a whitish color. It will take a bit of getting used to with this lighter smoke, but overall we feel this is a better target. At the current time, this ‘newer’ target will only be produced at our Webb City, Missouri, target plant. Hence, many shoots in the Midwestern US will receive these targets over the next few months.

We wanted to dispel any of the rumors out there that they were suddenly shooting a totally new WF target because they weren’t. Hopefully this clears up the misconceptions about what you will be using and what to expect. Should you and your gun clubs have any questions, please feel free to call me directly at our Houston office @ 713-626-1843. -------------------------

A lot of people had their own opinions and white flyer didn't like it to much. It seemed like a combination of targets and the super star traps. But that email doesn't explain why you could walk out and find targets with 5-8 holes in them not broke. Does anybody know what they said at the annual meeting Sunday about the targets

Nebraska has been plagued for a few years, untrained kids keeping score, no one paying attention if the traps were full, wornout superstar traps, three years in a row, I was on a squad that had traps run out of targets in the middle of the event, I heard the same from many people, I went back this year hoping it would be better, it was not, I think people did try, how can you forsee this kind of issue with the targets, but I really don't think I will go back next year, might go to Minnesota or Iowa, but I won't be back to Donaphin. I hope things change, crappy machines, untrained help, and 8$ sandwiches i do not need (sandwiches were good, but not 8$ good) did not stay for the meeting- I heard it before

870 shooter;

And you know the trap's are worn out, How???

Ken, I guess really i dont, but from what I have seen the last few years of the targets thrown, and from the comments I heard from the people setting them, it is an assumption on my part-either way, I wont be back next year. I would rather save what small amount of money i have to spend on shooting to shoot somewhere else, the first few years i was there, 06, 07, 08, I thought the targets were good, but the last few they were not. It has been a big point of discussion at the grounds the last few years. Maybe in the past few years they just were not been properly set, I don't know, but the machines as an issue has been discussed. Have you been there the last several years? what is your assesment?

I don't no if their worn out or if their just improperly fixed. They build those in Sweden and about like they build watches, if they break you need someone that knows what their doing to fix them. Unlike pat traps. I completely agree on the untrained scorers, I had a score keeper in the middle of a round go excuse me but I have to go get some bug spray. He jumped off the stand came back in about five minutes and oh boy was my squad mad about that.

Aulovel5, was that this year, the scorer incident? thats horrible, I did not have anything that bad this year, just the usual lack of ability to count and add, or understand failure to fire, or keep the house full, yeah I know those traps were built in Sweden, I hear they are now out of business, I thought i heard someone talking about a bushing or the main shaft of the unit, this was a topic of discussion a couple years ago, there was supposed to be a company that was making replacement parts, but i never did hear if they got them or if that fell through. The GMV site seems to be down, Shyda's still advertises them, but i dont know very much about the traps, I have only ever seen one out of the house and only had brief chance to look it over.

I manage the FT. Worth Club and we did get a batch of bad targets. Our scores were very low for the conditions and we did find targets that were hit with 3 and 4 holes and not broken. I got in touch with Phil Murray and I can't believe the response he had. He was at Nebraska all week working with them to try and figure out what to do. The problem was they had a lot of target breakage at the Kansas shoot, so to help the club be more profitable they went back and tried to harden up the target just a little. Well obviously they went a little to hard but they realize it and apologized for it. White Flyer was put in a tough spot when they lost their pitch supplier and to stay in business had to resort to a product they were unfamiliar with. They have been the industry standard for 40 or more years so why would we think they wouldn't do everything in their power to make it right. Phil told me they are going to send me a new truck load of targets and take my bad ones back and compensate me for any added expense we incur. I, for one, cannot say enough about the professional customer service they have given us. Our club will continue to support White Flyer for that reason alone. I am positive that if we give them a chance they will give us the same great quality target that made them the leader in years past. What has happened is unfortunate but what is done cannot be undone no matter what we do. Phil Murray and Jeff Schultz, I Salute You sirs for your efforts to help the clubs and the shooters.

Jimmy Phillips Manager Ft. Worth Trap and Skeet Club

Yeah the scorer did that this year the squad that was behind us said he was just swatting at bugs the whole time I just laughed it off but some people didn't. I saw Phil their and it seems like white flyer tries to have good customer service. On I think it was Thursday or Saturday they brought in new targets and their wasn't anybody their to help them unload so Phil and another rep that i didn't know we're out their unloading and putting them in the houses.

The score keepers we had all 4 days were not the best by any means. But what do they expect when they bring these kids from the city and try to teach them everything in 1 hour before you go to the line. I'm just suprised that they cannot find local help from the area to do this job. Seems to me that it would be farily easy money to be had.

Gentlemen: How is it the fault of the Nebraska group if White Flyer is having quality control problems? I don't think Nebraska called White Flyer and asked for a truckload of the worst they had! Second, What makes you think the traps were worn out? What did the traps do that gave you "solid" facts to base your analysis upon? If the scorers were bad, Nebraska was to blame. But, that is a normal bitch if you can't find anything else to complain about. It appears the real fact is there was a quality control problem that White Flyer was responsible for. I am not a Nebraska citizen, but I know those folks to be as honest and hard working as they come.

Aside from the problems with the targets from white flyer; the targets were very inconsistent on height. You would get a couple at one height then a couple lowers ones and back and forth. This was on days that were not windy/windy enough that it would make them fly 'funny'. Scores were also really low last year without the target hardness problem. It seems that there is some thing going on with the machines to not have the targets fly consistent. I truly hope they get this figured out as the Nebraska state shoot is a very good shoot. I also heard a LOT of people complaining about the last 2 years or so and say they won't be back until they start hearing that things have been taken care of.

As for the score keepers. They are not the greatest but I don't think for the most part they have been too bad either. Yes you get the occasional one that is really bad but if we as shooters will let the shoot management know about them they will take care of it. The comment about bringing them from a big city has me torn in my feelings. I agree that local help where they could get a little more training prior to the shoot would be good....BUT...... I also feel it does these inner city kids a lot of good to get out of the city and see that there is more to the world than the inner city problems. Almost all of the kids I talked to were amazed what it was like outside the city and commented that they liked it.

That is my take on it, Trap MD's Husband.

870shooter;

You have a P.M.

Ken

Thanks Ken, I have replied

I think some very dedicated people did the best they could with the machines and targets they had to work with. I don't know of anyone who was not given a reset of the targets if they asked for it. I would like to thank everyone who attempted to make this shoot a success. I believe our leadership is dedicated to correcting some serious issues, and restoring this shoot to one of the finest in the country. Ed Grubbs