What is interesting is should a person or a group, complain about noise, and they then lose, one real problem arises should they then complain about safety issues.

I feel safety issues are hard to prove or disapprove in most cases. Steve

Hartford Gun Club had to move...ONCE, because of the bitching, back in the 60's according to my friend. They relocated, then started buying up any property where potential issues came up. They claim to be the largest and oldest (est 1884) in the nation, and have been successful due to good planning and management. When clubs take the Ostrich, bury your head in the sand, screw 'em attitude, because of moron's, they end up, many times, paying a big price. We need to remember that many of the older clubs are occupying incredibly valuable real estate, and developers use unscrupulous tactics to get their hands on it. Chest thumping because you're in the "right" is like like thinking about past loves on the line......LOST!

best...mike

A few years ago I belonged to a club that was established in the 20's. There was nothing else around for miles. As developers built houses closer and closer during the recent housing boom one of the biggest problems we had was replacing the sign at the road to the ranges as real estate agents kept taking it down so clients wouldn't see it.

In this area, we have a small racetrack that can be heard at a great distance on Friday evenings. This track has been there for many years. A developer build a small sub-division nearby and the residents tried to have it closed down. The town told them NO WAY, you knew the track was there when you built.

Justice prevailed.

I have been shooting at the NSC in Texas for the last seven years and the houses are getting closer every year. when I first went there on the road leading into the range had nothing now they have a big church and a sub division across the road fron the complex and they have had some complants and at one time we thought it might move to another location.

The reality of it is the gun club usually ends up getting closed down and/or moved. Its known as urban encroachment and is a very common story. The value of the real estate determines how quickly that process moves.

As a avid shooter and mountain snowmobiler I see my two interests being attacked all the time. Im not sure who gets it worse these days sledders or gun sports...its a toss up. I have attended many land closure meetings, sent un-countable letters to govt officials, and always tried to do my part to educate those type of people at the table next to me.

As a society no matter what the hobby/sport you will always have these types of people. We wont be able to stop them from griping and causing problems BUT what we can do is to be sure and defend our hobby/sports as heavily as we are attacked. What burns my arse is the people that come on forums and whine about how these people are then when asked to attend a meeting or contribute to a group to protect our rights they are no where to be found! Not pointing fingers but if you are reading this you know how much effort you put into this sport or any other for that matter.

Taking the time and getting involved is the best way to protect our rights in any sport/hobby, and always represent what ever you are doing with respect and be the bigger person.

Himark: First of all, I agree with your comments. I also believe that the shooting sports are and will always be a target for these types of complaints and law suits.

If we only had members the numbers of just let's say that the golfers have, I think gun club closures would be few.

Most gun clubs when originally established were built out in the so called sticks, away from other businesses and residential neighborhoods. Over the years, a way to force out a gun club was by businesses building near the local gun club. What this eventually does is continually raise the clubs taxes in an attempt to force the club out. Obviously, their are legal ways to reduce a clubs taxes.

Your best friend at a gun club should be members who shoot and who are attorneys that can guide and help the club when the need does arise. Steve

Like Ontario Chris our town has had racing for 75 yrs. The city and county attorney's wives were complaining and there was a meeting between the sanctioning body and race fans and those who wanted to shut the races down. The two attorneys stated that there are noise laws in place and they could enforce them to shut the raced down so one of the race car drivers countered that the same laws could and would be used against high school sports, church bells, trains and anything else that made noise in the community. Not much was said after that.

New neighbors can be outlandish in their demands. One time we had a new woman employee hired by the company I worked for and on her first day, she requested that the department that she worked in turn the lights off as that is the way she works best.

The supervisor said no way, and if you intend to work here the lights stay on. She didn't last long as every week there was some new special request that she made.

I believe just like in the work force, you should stand your ground. Plain and simple, you can not satisfy everyone, so don't try.

Years ago, a local club tested shot shell loads after neighbors started to complain about noise coming from certain clubs. The owner of the club at the time was a 27 yard shooter and he had two other former All Americans help him test a number of new and reload shells to see if they could find a low noise load.

They also wanted to see how low of a powder charge they could possibly go and still break targets from 16 to 27 yards. If memory service me right they did get to a very low fps, but on hard angles from #1 and #5 you needed a bus transfer to catch up and lead the target. With such low powder charges the crimps on the hulls were another problem. It did lower the amount of noise, but nothing to my knowledge ever resulted by their testing. Steve

Conversely, what are opinions of building an airport/gunclub next to your subdivision?

Our club has been established for more than 65 years. Ten years ago, the trouble started.

Being there first doesn't seem to cut it.

Where the club was negligent was in not opposing the re-zoning that allowed the residences to be built. If they had opposed the re-zoning until a waiver was signed and attached to each property deed acknowledging and accepting the existence of the gun club, there would be no problem.

Our club now notifies the listing broker each time a house in the area goes up for sale. That way, the new purchaser tacitly accepts the existence of the club.

Our local gun club (a for profit operation) had been in operation for over 30 years. Some new neighbors got some of the older neighbors (none had lived there before the gun club was built) worked up into wanting the gun club closed due to noise. The county commission and some state level legislators (all Republicans) either drug their feet or sided with the new homeowners. However, one state senator (a Democrat) joined with a state house member on the other side of the state to push through state legislation grandfathering in any shooting facility that had been in operation 30 years or more. The range did have to move a few sporting clays stands near the road and plant some trees. They are still currently in operation. Of course it did help that this happened in gun friendly Tennessee.

BigMPerazzi: Interesting question. Steve

It is amazing to me how a few disgruntled people can cause a club so many problems and grief. It really hurts a club when anti gun individuals sit on the city board. Steve

Airposr - emminent domain.

Gun Club - probably not.

In the past I've heard of a few clubs that are proactive in regard to a growing community.

Twice a year a representative attends town meetings and tells the town of future plans, youth activies, and club schedules. The rep is also prepared to answer questions.

I would think he needs to be well versed in what the club is doing to manage lead, noise, and hours of operation; to include knowing state and local laws in that regard.

May something that clubs need to take a look at....

Steve, you are right. Here in Michigan, the Moose Sportsmans club in Dexter won a landmark noise case that I understand resulted in the Michigan Sport Shooting Range Protection Act in 1989 or so..

In NY State, we had somewhat of an law passed in the legislature that the governor did sign into law. It doesn't really get specific about grandfathering gun clubs, but it is a generality you might say about the subject. Someone with some money could get by whatever is written if their lawyers could outlast the gun club's lawyers. I believe that in a case of grandfathering, all gunclubs should join in the fight because it will be another way to topple them and give the anti-gun people more ammunition to fight with. Bad gun club publicity cannot be erased in people's minds because the people never read about the retraction or the club winning the fight because a lot of times it is ignored by the press or placed in a section so small and disregarded, it will not be seen.

We have a 3/8 miles dirt oval just over a mile from us and several neighbors tried to get it shut down after they'd moved to the area and tried to get me to sign on. I told them I liked the "music" the sprint cars and modified's were making just fine...they were NOT amused....go figure...

We had a club shut down because of noise complaints; the complainers said the noise from the shooting caused them to lose the enjoyment of their yards and patios, so the municipal government should shut down the bad shooting ranges. When the club paid for audio testing, placing VERY sensitive microphones on the complainants properties, recording shooting times and measuring the decibels at the range, the microphones were unable to pick up ANY noise created by the shooting, nor was there any shooting perceptible to human hearing at the complainants homes. Regardless of the lack of perceptible or measurable noise, the club was shut down because of the complaints, by a municipal government bowing down to political correctness and politically connected complainants. In the case of our club, we are on the top of a mountain, and have been there since losing the lease on our previous property, which was owned by the city, and was made into a park when we left. We chose our property many years ago, and made sure it was zoned for shooting ranges before buying . Now, when we get complaints about noise, it isn't from the existing neighbors, but from developers wanting to put in town sized developments on the land to our north. When they are told we are zoned as an ultralight airport or offroad vehicle park, among other things, and we can log, blast, and level the property to provide runway space, or create trails and obstacles for offroaders, they generally go away. Nobody has yet raised the safety bogeyman, but if a property is posted as "Danger-Live Shooting Ranges, No Trespassing", and the ranges are within a safe projectile template, there isn't much anyone can do. It takes forethought, work, and money to keep our ranges operating, so if you think your range may come under attack, get together, brainstorm the worst possible way you could be challenged, and move to correct that means of attack. You don't have to correct everything all at once, but a good faith start and plan of completion is generally looked upon favorably by government and regulatory bodies.

We get complaints at the Moses Lake gun club. The club has been at the current location since most streets were still dirt in the city. Now, urban sprawl has surrounded the club and we get complaints. Mostly from people that just moved into the area.

Shooting Sailor: You have given some very good advice in my opinion. Steve

I have been shooting for the past 42 years. In all that time I have only seen what good the gun clubs and it's members have done for not only charities, but for individuals should they be hurt and out of work by holding fund raisers.

Most shooters are good hard working people that would help out an individual at a drop of a hat. Last year, my son drove across country. I told him should your car break down or you have any trouble, ask where the local gun club is at and tell them your father's a trapshooter and they will help you out.

With that being said, when I see gun clubs giving thousands of dollars out in charitable donations I have never seen anyone complain about gun clubs.

In my own neck of the woods I have seen first hand what a few anti gunners can do in public office to a gun club. Steve

Where to start on this.

One club I go to had homes built across the road. The realtor's tried to go to the county to shut us down and took us to court. We proved that they could sell houses there with no problem. We found one guy who signed that day because there was a gun club across the road. He like to shoot. The realtors then tried to get the church who was about 200 yards from the entrance on us. We worked things out for their services and meetings. They are now happy. The realtors have now dried up and blew away. LOL

At a club in N Va had put in all land deeds around the club that they are notified and accept the fact there is a gun club in their area and that they can't sue the club or try to close it down. Smart.

In MD when I shot there most clubs had a land fee added to your cost to shoot. That money went to a account to buy land around the club whe it comes up. That way they control the area. Smart.

Gun clubs aren't the only ones that get harassed by new neighbors, in Frisco Tx there has been an Exide battery plant since the early 60's when it was built it was about 35 miles from Dallas, well the area around it exploded, and they built all around it

The plant installed filters and air monitors all around the plant paid for blood level lead tests that have never had a positive result, and the air has always been much lower then the minimum standards.

The EPA under the current administration lowered the minimum levels so low no where is safe

The city is shutting them down by not allowing permits to install the new air scrubbers to make the plant comply with the new EPA standards

About 150 people will lose their jobs and they are going to move the plant to either Mexico or China

There are so many ways a group of people (idiots) could close down a gun club, besides the noise factor, it would make your head spin.

"Planted" bullets hitting their house, lead contamination of ground or surface water, danger to kids inadvertainly walking through the property due to poorly marked boundries, etc., etc.

Luckily Wisconsin has a "Range Protection Law", but I wouldn't want to pay for the Attorney fees to argue the above issues.

I once went to a privately owned range (i.e. gravel pit) in Slinger, Wisconsin. You paid the guy $5 and you could shoot all day. One day a subdivision sprung up across the street. Aparently they didn't like the shooting, and arranged for a town meeting to shut them down. The town board members, and the owner argued the fact that the gravel pit has been a "shooting range" for over 50 years.

The unfartunate (I mean unfortunate), outcome was that they had to chain link fence the entire pit to control children, provide outhouses, and have several million dollars in liability insurance. I don't have to tell you, but we never got to shoot there again.

As I understand it, the Hartford club was moved 40 years ago or more from it's Farmington location to East Granby because the State of Ct. wanted to, and did build a medical center on the original property. It's still there and the HGC is still in East Granby.tifwiw. Noise and complaints had nothing substantive to do with it. By the way its' current location is very close to Bradley International Airport. Jets taking off will occasionally set the traps off. Rather disconcerting![smile]

Don't let facts interfere with a good story...

Auctioneer: That land fee would seem to be a good idea. Steve

Catpower: To lose 150 jobs over this nonsense. Steve

Shooter R: After reading some of these responses, the next time a club raises prices it should be more understandable in regards to the hidden cost of running a gun club. Steve

As someone who worked in local government and had respond to and investigate nuisance complaints with respect to everything from noise, excessive lights after dark, odors, increased traffic I learned a lot of things about the process.

1) If those complaining have friends (political allies) you're pretty much screwed unless you can access someone above them.

2) Politicials and people they appoint to commissions and committees are vunerable to recall and to the threat of recall -- but you just can't threaten them they need to believe you can make elected life difficult for them and keep the pressure on.

3)Don't wait to long to respond -- you need to be there at the first hint of a problem. Don't expect the other side to be reasonable and see the light. It will only get worse if you don't jump in at the first hint of a problem.

A thought about noise --- it isn't always about how loud it is, but the nature of the noise. On an otherwise quiet night you can hear a bottle break from quite a distance - same for a baby crying - or a piece of chain-link clinking on a metal post --- they are all noises out of place - not loud but distracting.