This only applies to more experienced shooters that are shooting the targets where they are supposed to while it is on the rise. Everyone knows you need lead on a left or right angle target but many don't understand vertical lead. Trap targets go up every time more than they go anywhere else.

The 20 " core of your pattern is what smokes a target and most of that core should be above the target to look after the targets rise. A lot of shooters see their gun smoke targets several times in a round of 25 and they feel they have the right point of impact.

In reality most guns that shoot 60/40 are 3" to low for 16 yards and way too low for longer yardage handicap. You can be in the upper part of that 20" core shooting a pattern that is too low and too narrow where it hits the target and never know it. This article explains the amount of target rise after the shot is fired.

The following article is not my writing but I think it is very good. Terry.

I've changed the title of this thread, as recommended by Neil. As promised on the Any Mathematicians....lead thread, here is the information obtained from plotting the target flight path and measuring vertical lead for singles and 27yd caps.

Case A: singles target broken at 34yds from shooter, using a shell throwing 1oz #8 @1150fps (3' vel). Choke: IM. Target speed at break: 44fps. Distance target moves while shot is in transit: 5.3'.

Case A shot: with the bead centered on the target, the shooter fires when the bird is 96.7' away from him. If he uses a 50/50 gun, the center of his pattern will strike 6 1/8" low at 34yds, because the target will rise that much in the 5.3' it travels waiting for the shot to arrive.

Case B: 27yd handicap target broken 42yds from shooter, using a Nitro 27 throwing 1 1/8os of #7 1/2 @1235fps (3' vel). Choke: F. Target speed at break: 50fps. Distance target moves while shot is in transit: 7.4'.

Now let's take an AAA 27 shooter who aims, and uses the sustained lead method. Let's lock the trap to throw a straight-away from Post 3. Target presentation is a 50yd target rising 9' high 10yds from the trap.

Our AAA 27 shooter is really good, has perfect vision and sees the target the moment it rises above the trap house. He's on it in a flash, centers the bead on the bird and tracks the bird in that manner until it is time to fire.

Case B shot: with the bead centered on the target, the shooter fires when the bird is 118.6' away from him. With a 50/50 gun, the center of the pattern will strike 13 3/4" low at 42yds.

So, our AAA 27 shooter needs a gun that shoots 6" high @34yds for singles and 14" high @42yds for caps. Regulating that to 40 yards and converting to ratios for you old timers, our shooter needs a 70/30 gun for singles and a touch more than a 90/10 gun for 27yd caps.

If our shooter decides to convert his singles gun for caps by inserting spacers under the comb, he will need about three 1/16" spacers. I've been using two 1/16" spacers plus one 1/32" spacer for a while and think it works out just fine.

If he decides to shoot his 90/10 gun for singles without adjusting it, he will have to hold a touch more than 5" under the Case A target to center it where it breaks. That's about 1 bead diameter between the top of the bead and the bottom of the bird.

That's just about how I see it on the line. It's nice to see the math and observation confirm each other.

What is sustained lead? I just point and shoot. Maybe thats my problem!! Lester

dverna, that little "glow" pipe is much easier to see with Harlan's peripheral vision while his eyes are glued to the targets!

Hap

TTT for jim.

A high POI is not "required", a shooters point of impact is subjective and unique to that shooter. This thread is being overthought in my opinion.

Interesting and informative thread guys.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

So 3357, you don't need an adjustment for 27 yards? Please explain your reasoning. I assume you are AAA27?

I shoot a 100% high POI the gun shoots where I look and I look at the target, not high or not low no float no nothing look at the target and your brain tells you to shoot.

Mr. Setterman, I am on the 25 (25.5), practice from the 26, and make no adjustment. I shoot a Ljutic mid rib that is about 70/30 for me with 35 thousanths (fixed) choke. I shoot light 8s from the 16 and AA silver bullet 7.5s in handicap. When I miss it is MY fault, when I am focused and paying attention the targets smoke. I understand that while this works for me it may or may not work for others.

There was an interesting article in TRAPSHOOTING USA a while back wherin they asked several big dog shooters if they made adjustments from 16s to handicap, all except Leo Harrison (who added 1/8th shim for handicap) made no adjustment for handicap shooting.

My comment only meant to say that each shooter is an individual with unique timing and visual accuity. What I do may or MAY NOT work for others. I cannot tell you or anybody else what they need to do. They need to experiment for themselves and find what is right for them.

3357, Good explanation. Some do, some don't.

That was the reason for this thread back in April.

I shoot a silver seitz #3 rib and stock is raised with gap between beads on paper its supposed to shoot 140% high dead on at the target I do not float it just LOOK AT THE TARGET, its a shotgun not a rifle,I shot walnuts throwing in the air with my dads remington 550-1 auto same difference,Dan

For some good reason, I suppose, I have had to go to a higher POI as I've aged and had both shoulders replaced. I get on a target pretty fast and it may be that I need more "built in vertical lead" now.

Most of the top shooters that I know say they don't float targets at all. The consistent centering of the target just happen at that POI. While adjusting my point of impact as I've aged and gotten slower that's what I have strived to do.

I feel it better to find how high a point of impact you need is to regulate your gun's POI on regulation set targets, set on straight-a-ways shot from post 3. I don't think doing it on the pattern board is a very good place to translate what you need for POI. It's another step that is unnecessary.

This doesn't translate well from one gun to the other. You have to do it for every gun you are going to take into competition.

What effect does locktime have on poi?

ROBB, Mathematically the difference between fast and slow lock time should have little effect on POI. However I just started shooting an automatic after shooting an Alfermann(very short lock time). I had to change from a !00% POI to a 80/20 POI to get good breaks. I shoot a release trigger and I am sure some of the difference is that the auto has a little slower trigger. Even tho the math says no change I think most experienced shooters believe it makes a difference. SMOKIT

Smokit, The reason I ask is 5yrs ago I changed from an 1100 to a MachOne. One day last year I got the 1100 out just for fun and could not hit anything. After several shots I realized if I shot a foot above a singles target it would break. The Mach is 20" high at 30 yds. The 1100 is factory MC stock with step rib barrel.60/40 or so. Both guns are release. So to me locktime does effect poi. I wondered what others thought.

Robb, I think with slower lock time you should have to hold lower to hit the target..gun keeps moving after you think you have fired the shot...SMOKIT

I agree with you but it didn't work that way. I don't claim to understand but that is what I found.

I'm late to this discussion. However, My 80/20 POI for me, keeps my eyes on the bird through the whole swing/shoot process. As the bead passes through the bird my brain says let her go, and I release. Hopefully, I follow through and the bird turns to dust. That is, assuming I keep my head down, have the finger in the right place on the trigger, and an additional twenty plus assorted issues that crop up on occasion. But then, thats Trap Shooting....

Setterman, Wayneo's pictures illustrate one way those that do not adjust their combs when switching between singles and handicap cope with the difference. T Jordan's excerpt of an article I posted years ago explains why.

Many people, including me, are more comfortable adjusting their combs to accomplish essentially the same thing. I wish I could do it Wayneo's way, but it doesn't work for me.

A third method is to hold lower for caps and make the same move you would for singles. That has the effect of building in lead.

As far as high POI goes, what you need depends on how you shoot. If you use a high hold, shoot quickly and only make horizontal gun movements, you will need a really high POI. On the other hand, if you are a Sporting Clays shooter who also shoots trap, a 60/40 POI (or something very similar)is what you will like.

zzt, Agree. Everyone has their own method that works best. This thread was started last April just to get some discussion started and maybe open eyes/answer questions.

Personally, I shoot the same POI and comb set up for 16s and 27. My "sight picture" (when I do see it) looks like I'm almost touching the bird on every shot. I also know I dare not go over the bird. Hard rights and lefts, it appears my bead is just under the target as I sweep thru. I do that naturally. I don't try to do it. I shoot 16's faster than 27's and use a slower load on singles.

12-13" POI at 28 yards with a Seitz. (18" at 42 yards). My sporter MX-8 is 6" POI at 28 yards.

It is interesting to see all the different sight pictures and methods. Everyone has their own perspective that works.

The conversation and ideas in this thread are very interesting. When you consider the top ten all Americans and even there the POI vary, but still successful, so there is more than one way to skin a cat, even in trap. Scott

Most will do what they have found the most success with and also what they get used to. Do what works for you. Amen

maybe Harlan shoots with the hi-vis sight because they pay him to....

tony

I think Setterman's drawing and wayneo's pics show the advantage of having an adjustable rib. Setterman's gun shoots high and the gun in wayneo's pic are of a, I assume, flat shooting Remington 1100. With an adjustable rib, you can set what looks right to you vs trying to accomodate the gun's fixed POI. I think wayneo's pics are from Lee Braun's book with Remington, great read. I fall victim to the feeling that you have to drastically change you sight picture from 16 to the 27. I try to remember that a little back here at the gun is a lot out there at yardage. I'm on the 21 so not an expert by any means. Doug Allison

Very interesting thread. I have one more question.

Up here in the north country it is that time of year for adjustments and experiments. I shoot a BT100 for Singles & Caps. 34" Ported, Invector Plus Midas Grade Full Choke, adjustable comb. It all seems to work for me.

I have acquired a Citori 425 30" ported, Invector plus Choke system. Over the Winter I will purchase Midas Grade Chokes for the Citori and plan on some doubles and a use it as a back-up trap gun for singles and caps.

The question is: What is the process for understanding my current POI and what is the process to try and match, as close as I can, the Citori to that POI?

Thanks in advance for all of your help.

Cheers, Dusty

Dusty, You may need to have a slightly different POI to break birds with the O/U. Reason, trigger is different--gun swings different, sight picture is different....SMOKIT

From a bench rest, shoot your BT100 at a splatter board. Right or wrong, I shoot it at 14 yards, and then again at 28 yards. Shoot from each yardage 5 times and measure each shot. You'll now have an average POI. The 28 yard shots should be twice as high as your 14 yard shots. With a full choke, your pattern should be 20"-22" diameter.

Also check your right to left POI and make sure your shots are dead on vertically.

Do the same with your new gun and raise or lower the comb till it shoots the same place. Triggers and weight have some affects on POI, but they are minimal.

Dusty, setting up you new gun for the same POI as your BT-100 is simple. You can do a search on this site for threads that address the issue. There are many, many. However, I'll give you a synopsis.

First, make sure your new gun shoots straight. Set up on a bench rest, take your tightest choke, put it in the lower barrel and fire at a pattern board somewhere between 15 and 20 yards away. Aim that shotgun just like you would a rifle. The idea here is to find out where the gun shoots, not where you shoot it. If you use a grease plate, only the core of the pattern will show clearly, speeding up the process. Fire a couple more shots so you are sure exactly where that barrel/choke combo prints.

Now replace that choke with another and repeat the process. Mark where that choke prints. Do the same for all your remaining chokes. If you are lucky, a couple of your chokes will print to the same spot. Save them and mark the rest. Now take one of the known good chokes (preferably the tightest), put it in the top barrel and shoot it. Chances are it will print to a different spot that it did in the lower barrel. If it is close you are fine. If it is far off you'll have to decide what to do about it. This is much easier to tell if you shoot at 20 yards.

Now set up at a pattern board about 15 yards away. Anything between 13 and 16 is fine, just be consistent. Draw a vertical line on the paper, stand as you do on the line and trace that line with the bead of your BT-100. Fire whenever and repeat. If you are centered on the line all is well. I'll assume it is because you are happy with that setup.

Now drawn a horizontal line across a sheet, trace it with the bead and fire. Do this a couple of times to be sure you get a good representation. Measure how high the center of the shot is above the line for each hit and average. Record that number.

Now repeat the process with the 425 using the tightest good choke and the best (from a regulation standpoint) barrel. Start with the vertical line and adjust your comb right and left until you are consistently centered on the line. Then draw a horizontal line and fire. Adjust your comb up or down so that your impacts are the same height as they were using your BT-100.

This is as close as you are going to get until you go out and shoot a round. You'll be breaking birds, but you still might have to make some minor adjustments to smoke them.

Thought I'd throw something in here...my theory on POI and what is right for each person is what is happening with your barrel when you hit the switch. In my handicap clinics,I really try to watch barrels during the shot, because I feel that is what will determine the POI you need.

When I have visited with some buddies who were all tremendous shooters, I came to find out that we all see the same thing when we pull the trigger, what happens then determines your POI. For example...Mitchel Loveless, Ricky Marshall, and Nora all shoot lower POI's, but they all go through the target with their barrel on the shot...on the other side Ray, myself and other high POI shooters stop or slow down our barrels on the shot, therefore, we need a higher POI to make up the difference. I really think it's that simple.

Randy Ross

Randy,

I understand what you are saying if the target is a straight away but I don't understand how you can hit angled targets if you stop or slow down your barrel and don't go through the target with you barrel.

Can you please help me understand how your method works on the angled targets.

Thank you.

Garry, That's a good question...I feel that gun speed is lead. I never purposely see lead, it just sort of happens through being aggressive in my move to the target. As I catch the target, I pull the trigger...my gun speed moves it through the bird. I still stop the gun from moving anymore, but it still goes on enough to overtakes the target. Hope this helps, it's hard for me to describe in this format. Feel free to PM me if you have some more questions. Randy Ross

Thsnks for bringing this to the top Setterman.

I was good to see a Neil Winston post even if it is a year old. As usual, he is on the mark.

Bob

Randy Ross wrote: "Mitchel Loveless, Ricky Marshall, and Nora all shoot lower POI's, but they all go through the target with their barrel on the shot."

This post really clears it up for me; I'm pretty sure he is describing the vertical move while the horizontal component is a natural swing through. 25 years ago when I could shoot with a Pull trigger, I probably paused for just a millisecond before shooting but with the release trigger the barrel is still climbing when I let her go.

ttt

OK, dumb question.

Seems that, the more targets I shoot (reg around 16-K last 6 years) the higher POI I prefer. My belief is that I'm starting to "settle in" on a consistent POI over this past year, but up to then I was steadily raising the impact point.

Is this common to most?

Also, maybe Randy would be kind and explain, what is meant when it's said that a shooter is "shooting off the end of the barrel"?

Thanks, Matt Nicol

Matt, I've never really used that term "shoot off the end of the barrel". I would guess it's when a shooter wants to increase their impact and raises the comb high enough that their eye is not grooved down the rib with the beads. I never felt comfortable doing this, so I had Tom Wilkinson cut extra notches in my barrel(MX10RS) so I could have a very high impact, but still see what I like down the rib before calling for the target.

Hope this helps...Randy Ross

All this chaff and a modest amount of wheat.

NO one mentioned the fact that the target will continue to rise during the flight time of the shot charge.

(eh?...What?...)

If you shoot a flat shooting gun you have to point it where the shot will hit it when it gets there, eg above where it is now.

A high shooting gun will put the shot above where the bird is "now" so it smacks the bird as it gets to that spot.

Think of it as the bird rising into your pattern.

Next week we will talk about angle targets (ah, no).

HM

I want to see a full black inkball above my barrel.

--->An advantage to "Shooting off the end of the barrel" is that your receiver does not block so much of your view. Especially helpful for one eye shooters...SMOKIT

I asked Ray Stafford about his new guns POI recently and he said this. "Tom Wilkinson says it shoots 36 inches high when he patterned it." Ray told me he wasn't totally sure of his POI but doubted it was close to 36 high, more like 25 inches high for him! Reason being? Peoples cheekbones vary a lot and a shotgun that shoots extremely high for one may not nearly that high for another with a higher cheekbone.

I've always watched the top shooters intently while they smoke targets and learned quite a lot from doing so. If you watch Ray and Harlan's end of the barrels as they shoot, you'll hardly detect any vertical rise in the barrels end! Those two guys have merely removed one of the moves necessary to make the barrel/birds intersect at the right time!! That allows them to concentrate on their horizontal move only with eyes glued to the target and references (bead/very bright bead) seen in their peripheral vision!!

From Terry Jordan's post above;

"Now let's take an AAA 27 shooter who aims, and uses the sustained lead method. Let's lock the trap to throw a straight-away from Post 3. Target presentation is a 50yd target rising 9' high 10yds from the trap."

In todays shooting competitions, it's really tough to find a 9 foot set target!! Especially at a major tourney! Most begin at 10 and go up drastically from there!! SO, the numbers posted for a 9 foot high set target will be vastly different for the cloud climbing targets!! Nevertheless, great post by Terry and very informative too!!

Hap

Hap, you just let the cat out of the bag. You reference point shooting on the vertical rise of the target. Guys that have high shooting guns, and know where they shoot, do it subconsciously. You never see a vertical follow through. Guys with flat shooting guns (and are missing targets) don't follow through vertically enough.

And if that wasn't bad enough you actually recognize that shotguns have a front bead....Oh my.

Wayne

I really agree with what Randy says. What different shooters do timing wise when they get to the target varies on lots of things.

Faster and slower trigger lock times, different shooter brain reaction times a lot like in drag racing starts and seeing a different gun, target relationship off the end of the barrel.

That stuff creates lots of different POI s that work great for some shooters.

Terry.

Like Matt, I migrated from a 70/30 to a 120 POI. Has always baffeled me why, but I'm shooting better.

"off the end of the barrel" to me means seeing a bunch of rib (High POI), in lieu of the preferred figure eight down the rib.

My POI used to be 22" high @ 40. I shot my best scores and averages with that setup. Because I have eye dominance issues and because I used to be slow picking up the second bird at doubles, I kept lowering my POI in an attempt to get around the dominance issue. I thought it was working for a while. I now shoot a 9" high @ 40 gun. That is pretty flat, and I am not shooting well. I'm going to be increasing that in the near future. I've pretty much discovered that if the barrel is anywhere near the target, there is a good chance my left eye will take over.

BTW, at least for me, 22" high was not enough to eliminate vertical movement. On a hard right, for instance, my swing would track the target path at about half the angle of flight.

How does POI affect your approach to the hard angles? With a 70/30 POI would you swing up through the target? With a higher POI would you swing underneath the target? Would you see any lead in either case or would you let swing speed build in the lead?

I can only answer Brett44's question with my limited experiance. On caps back fence shooting a 90/10 POI, station # 5 and getting a hard right I have to swing under the bird to crush it, if I swung through it or covered it at all it was over the top or if I was lucky a chip. Common sense would tell you to float it on a straight away and float it also on a hard angle. If I shot over a hard angle on # 4 or # 5 the next shot I lower my gun hold, from the roof of the house to a hold 6" to a foot lower. It solved my "shooting over" problem on those days, especially when the wind was strong on my back. Other question, my lead is swing speed. YMMV Scott

Brett44, yes you would swing under the target. Here is my approach. I'll tell you in advance it will be regarded as heretical by the set_your_POI_on_straightaways_from_post_3 crowd.

For this example I'll assume your gun shoots straight, you shoot it straight and your POI is in the ballpark (regardless of how you got it there). If you are right handed, set the trap to throw only hard rights. Set up on Post 5 and blast away. How high a POI you want is determined by how you shoot and what you want to see when you pull the trigger.

If you hold low on the house and want to track the trajectory of the bird with your swing and fire when the bead touches the bird, you'll need a 60/40 POI (3" high at 40), or something slightly greater.

If you always want to be able to see the bird, you'll need a higher POI. For any POI higher than 6" @ 40, the shot continues to rise. The higher the POI, the more it continues. For 6" @ 40, the shot is 6.5" high @ 50 and back down to 6" high @ 60. For a 10" @ 40 POI, the shot is 11.5" high @ 50 and 12" high @ 60. For a 16" POI @ 40, the shot is 19"high @ for and 21" high @ 60.

As you can see, the higher the POI, the lower the bead must be in relation to the bird when you fire. As you track the bird, the trajectory of your swing will be at an angle less than that of the climbing bird. With a really, really high POI like 36" @ 40, your movements will essentially be horizontal.

Now, once you have the POI set up for what you want to see on the hard angles, it's time to set the trap for straights on Post 3. Because the line of your swing is now exactly that of the target path, you will have to see more daylight between the bead and the bird than you did on 1 or 5. On Post 5 your swing built in horizontal lead and you higher POI took care of the vertical component. On Post three your swing still builds in lead, but this time it is vertical, so you'll have to adjust for the higher POI or you'll be shooting over the bird.

There are a couple of ways you can adjust for this. If you hold higher on 3 than you do on 1 and 5, the higher hold results in a shorter swing that doesn't build up as much momentum. So you can often keep the same bead/bird relationship and avoid overshooting.

zzt, Are you saying he should hold lower on the corners and higher on post 3 if he shoots a high POI? Phil Kiner actually mentions this on his tape, but he also says "Do what works for you".

Setterman, I'm a firm believer in Phil's assessment that you "should do what works for you".

Phil is not dogmatic. He'll say try this. If it doesn't work, he'll say stop it.

I absolutely DO NOT want to put words in Phil's mouth. In this respect, I'm saying this is what worked for me. Although I came up with this idea all on my own, I'd be willing to bet that 1,057,285 shooters did the same.