"Give me tradition anytime."

Finally, you understand why it needs to return to Ohio.

Finally we know your real adenda. Just another Ohio or nothing guy. You finally trapped yourself.

I don't care where the Grand is, I'm going. Illinois, Ohio, Nevada, Indiana, Mississippi, where ever! You guys can fuss till the cows come home, or just go shoot.

Barry, you're not making sense.

Ohio is a great choice. So is Indiana. Kentucky is a fine option.

Many options make sense. Evidently, you completely ignored my posts above which spoke well of November shoots in Atlanta and Vegas.

There are some choices that will just never be right. Illinois is high on that list, and other choices that force large numbers of shooters to drive through Illinois are also iffy.

I agree with 320090T, I dont care where the grand is IM GOING. And where else is there that many trap fields and a facility that nice to accomodate that many people?

I will never go to Sparta and will join the THOUSANDS of ATA members West of the Miss. who will never attend.The Grand is a shoot for the Midwest and those who live and travel the country in RV's.Look at the Grand attendance #'s: it's going down,the boys are getting older, and the midwest/Pa are the major attendee's.

It's a big country and we in the West do matter and hope in my lifetime that there will be a Grand Western shoot for ATA/PITA members in Vegas.They can handle 10,000 shooters and the state of Nevada built their new facility for a shoot on a national scale and would welcome a shoot like the Grand( Nevada is gun friendly)

If the ATA is in fact in finacial trouble( the #'s look like it to me). They need to grow from where they are now and at the same time control expenses.

The future growth needs to come from the West which is a shooter's market. Look at the size and growth of western shoots- they are showing growth.

The Cardinal and Sparta guys can fight it out - but this Westerner looks forward to shooting VEGAS!

http://www.isp.state.il.us/foid/firearmsfaq.cfm

If a non-resident is coming to Illinois to hunt and would like to bring their firearm, how do they legally transport it? Non- residents must be legally eligible to possess or acquire firearms and ammunition in their state of residence. It is recommended that, in order to be in compliance with all statutes, non-residents transport all firearms: 1) Unloaded, and 2) Enclosed in a case, and 3) Not immediately accessible or broken down in a nonfunctioning state. (dmarbell added the numbers for easier reading, as the format did not copy.)

From the document that smoking357 linked to:

In order to comply with those statutes when transporting a firearm, it must be: 1. Unloaded, and 2. Enclosed in a case, and 3. By persons who have a valid FOID card. 4. Non-Residents must be eligible to possess or acquire firearms and ammunition in their state of residence.

There is nothing unsettled about this part of Illinois law. The only caveat is traveling through nutcase Illinois municipalities that ban guns.

To resolve this issue: There are about 3,000 shooters a year (?) shooting at the Grand. How many out-of-state-of-Illinois shooters have had legal problems involving transporting firearms? If you have, let's hear it.

Many shooters fly in with their guns. If they weren't supposed to have guns in Illinois, do you think they'd be allowed to leave the airports?

Also, based on what I've been able to determine, the rear storage part of a hatchback or SUV is not considered to be accessible to drivers or front seat passengers.

smoking357, I hate to enter this fray. Spend some time figuring out how to get 45 mph clay targets to show up on television, and our sports can take their places in popularity behind televised hockey.

Danny, The Bored

I agree with Blackfoot, Vegas would be a great spot. But I have another suggestion. Why not have (3) clubs rotate every year.

For example, year one is Sparta, year two is Vegas, year three is a club located closer to the East coast (Pennsylvania?).

At least that way the folks on either coast can attend once every three years.

Another suggestion is why don't they let the cities bid on holding the Grand like they do with the Olympics? That way the city that has it in (3) years can start building their complex...

Kevin

Kevin, that is an outstanding suggestion!I think rotating the Grand would be a solution to everyone's needs and would breathe some life into the ATA- the board would be forced to address the needs of the membership at large!

I vote to have it at the Silver Dollar in Florida!

I like the Vegas plan, and I like rotation.

I really like moving it later in the year, too.

Silver Dollar is a nice facility, but it's very South in the country, and I don't think that two-lane road could handle the traffic. Silver Dollar is another 500 miles PAST ATLANTA, and Atlanta is considered the Deep South!

How about alternating Grands between Vegas and Atlanta, in November, annually? The Midwest and East Coast can reasonably reach Atlanta, and the West Coast guys can hike it to Vegas.

When they hold it in Vegas, can we please throw the lime targets?

I do Love those green targets

The turnout from California, Oregon, Washington, Nevada, Arizona and Idaho shooters could be a very large crowd. Most of these folks normally wouldn't drive 3 days to get to the Grand, especially if they are not retired. But anything within a days drive, I would be there in a heart beat.

Kevin

You need to Add Montana,Wyoming,Arizona,New Mexico,Colorado,Utah and Texas to the Western bunch!The numbers start to add up!

Las Vegas is the best place to hold the Grand. If you need something to compare it to look at the PRCA NFR. They had a 5 year deal with Vegas in 1985 and it has not left. Why? It is a place that the whole family can go and enjoy. The other reason is the money that the city has put in the event. Just something to look at and think about.

Build a trapshooting/sc/skeet/bunker, etc, etc., near the Cheney Reservoir (10 miles) west of Wichita,KS. That venue is approx 1300 miles east of Sacramento, CA and approx 1300 miles west Filthydephia,PA.

As long as we're wishing in one and crapping in the other.....this would be a ideal "central Location".

A better solution would be to partner with Bass pro Shops and build something near Bransom, MO. Plenty to do for everyone.

Or

Find a state that is not going bankrupt.

Curt

Lets have a playoff on the East and West coast with only the winners advancing to a neutral site in the middle. might make everyone be able to attend.

Thanks everyone for the discussion on this subject, I feel everyone has a good opinion on this subject, there is no reason why we can't have this shoot in three different areas of the country, the main base shooters will attend anywhere the shoot is held, this would give the rest of the country a chance to shoot at the grand, I would like to see other area's of the country anyway. Thanks Stan

Stan,

Only one thing would stop the Grand from rotating. The $50 million or so investment required to create facilities like Sparta, while having the promise to have 2,500 or more shooters once every three years (see Neil's comment near the top of the thread). And if the goal is to increase attendance, there have to be three facilities capable of handling even more shooters than Sparta.

The Super Bowl can rotate because there are many stadiums in large cities capable of handing 100,000 fans.

Danny

Las Vegas is already built-brand new,the 10,000 high quality rooms(probably at an attractive price) are made up and ready within 10 miles, the highways are in place,the airport can move 100,000 people/day 15 miles down the road,and enough RV sites for all and probably more potential prize money available than anyone can imagine.

It lacks one thing- the shoot!Why would anyone want to shoot there-maybe no trees,no humidty?

Can we get the Barbary Coast or the 'Dust to put up a line?

We'll see how good these shooters really are when there's action being taken on them.

I can see nothing wrong with Vegas in November. The pro class can even get television coverage.

With the current trend in our membership numbers, there are several facilities in existence right now that can accomodate a rotating Grand. Missouri, Cardinal Center, Sparta, Michigan and Nevada are the big 5 that come to mind. If there are any more clubs with at least 40 program traps I would include them as well as long as all of the traps face the same direction. It would take a huge increase in shooters before 40 traps was insufficient. 20 - 2 trap banks, proven to speed up the shooting process due to less moving. No partial squads allowed. Except for the last flight. Again, think outside the box. Partial squads are wasteful and disrupt the flow of the event.

I can't see any new facilities being built from the ground up to house a tournament that would occur once every 3 years at best so the only other solution is to add on to some of the larger clubs that may already have the available space for additinal field to attain the 40 program trap minimum. That would broaden the pool of locations a bunch.

The age old excuse of the Grand being held in the summer because thats when "the kids" were out of school is a big crock of doo doo. There would be no problem getting responsible adults to score and load machines anywhere the event was held if necessary. Stop using "The Kids" as your excuse. If the sport is important enough, "The Kids" will get time off of school and go. My dad didn't have a problem pulling me out of school for a week or more to go to deer camp as long as my grades were up and I got my homework assignments in advance so please don't go there. It's just an excuse. Find a new one.

Saying that the Grand needs to be held at the end of the target year is also a bunch of crap. People whine, people cry, people stomp their feet and they get their way. It's time to slap them and stick them in the corner for awhile until they get over their little tantrums. What difference does it matter when it's held? The requirements to participate are for target year X, regardless of when the event is held. Again, another big excuse.

Successful businesses adapt to market conditions to survive. Those that do it well prosper. Those that don't flounder and wither and die a slow painful death. Sounds like the ATA is in the withering and dying category. Too caught up in their old ways to adapt and it is slowly dying. Unless there are some big changes to "Business as Usual", there isn't going to be any business to worry about.

Jeff

Awesome post, Gold Ex. Unfortunately, they'll just hide behind claims of "you just don't understand the traditions of the sport" and claim that if you haven't actually won the Grand, you have no business talking about it.

Before I post this I would like to say I really didn't intend to start a pi**ing contest in this thread but it would appear that I will be a little late. Toking357 please don't start you tactics of changing the subject when someone nails you BS to the wall as you always do. Just think about what I am going to tell you.

"Great idea, Stumpi. No reason a big event can't rotate. The Super Bowl does. The All Star game does."

So tell us where do they hold them??? You always seem to compare Multi million dollar sports with sports that rely on $100,000 donations to try to boost attendance.

"Vegas in November is lovely. Atlanta in November is pretty nice, too. Can that Olympic course be used? The location has to be a place that is enjoyable to everyone, even in complete absence of shooting."

Absolutely there is nothing I would like better than to go to Vegas or Atlanta just to have lovely weather even if I don't shoot. RIGHT!!!!!!

"This discussion is about weather and logistics. Do you have some alternate weather database that shows Midwestern weather in August is lovely and Southern weather in November is horrible?"

See my comment above it fits the drivel also. I was under the impression that the discussion was about having different locations for the Grand!!!!!!

"HD, I'm not worried about the gun laws in Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky, or Nevada."

This one is interesting you are worried about gun laws in IL. Yet not in any of the states the people have to drive through to get to IL or to venues that may be in those states. So it would seem that you are only interested in disrupting the flow of the conversation in progress.

"I can't believe a gun organization rewarded one of the most anti-gun states in the union with a big gun event."

Toking 357 you have this incorrect the ATA didn't reward IL. They rewarded the ATA they paid the bill for Sparta to the tune of 30 plus million dollars. Of I know that you think that is chicken feed for an Association that is loosing money annually. As a matter of fact it appears some others Sparta bashers do also.

"BigM, you're a very rude man. You think you're an expert on gun laws, and when you're contradicted, you respond with insult. That's very rude and very immature."

Well gee toker if he thinks he is and expert on gun laws and you are contradicting him that would make you the expert!!! Just as the fact that you seem to think you arean expert on guns, weather, gun clubs and of course Trap. YA RIGHT!!!!!!!!!! Why would the state of IL spend 30 plus million on a shooting facility run by the state and then allow the police in that state to drive the shooters away? Brilliant deduction on your part but why would logic come from the vast cavern you call a head. YES I am being rude.

"Barry, I just finished reading that marathon thread about Sparta being doomed in which WPT whooped you and revealed that you were from Illinois."

Toker that is no revelation anyone that has been here longer than a month and isn't an expert on every subject known to man. Has known all along where Barry comes from. BTW where does WPT come from, not where does he live where does he come from.

"Come up with something, once in a while, that actually holds its own as an argument."

Does that statement mean the winning the argument is more important than discussing the issues. As your comments put you in an argument every thread you post on. I would guess you have to win something.

"Finally, you understand why it needs to return to Ohio."

No please tell us how returning to Ohio will restore tradition at a club that maybe didn't exist while the grand was in Ohio. Or at least not on the scale it does now. BTW the club that was tridition in Ohio no longer exists.

"Ohio is a great choice. So is Indiana. Kentucky is a fine option.

So outside of the possibility of Ohio can you name a club in Indiana or Kentucky that is big enough to host the Grand????

"Many options make sense. Evidently, you completely ignored my posts above which spoke well of November shoots in Atlanta and Vegas."

Well Vegas might but which club in Atlanta?????

"How about alternating Grands between Vegas and Atlanta, in November, annually? The Midwest and East Coast can reasonably reach Atlanta, and the West Coast guys can hike it to Vegas."

Again which club in Atlanta?????

"I can see nothing wrong with Vegas in November. The pro class can even get television coverage."

Try to understand "There is no Pro Class" so what would TV cover?????????

GoldEx if attendance is down at the Grand in Sparta can you guarantee that 40 traps will be enough at the more desirable locations that you sight????

Bob Lawless

"Defunct athletics competitions" The following 8 pages are in this category, out of 8 total. This list may not reflect recent changes ().

A IAAF Golden League

E European Cup (athletics)

G IAAF Grand Prix Final

G cont. The Greatest Race on Earth

U UK Championships in Athletics

W IAAF World Athletics Final

ATA -GAH?

I started shooting trap in Illinois in 1970. In 40 years I have not heard of a single incident of a trapshooter being harassed, threatened, arrested,or anything similar in connection with going to, coming from, or attending a trapshoot. Yeah, Illinois is really against trapshooting.

Ok, so maybe they move the Grand to Oct. why not have it in more than one place and make it like the Satilite Grand. One in Sparta,the other in Vegas, with maybe a 3rd in San Anton. or maybe just the two. Just a thought. Break-em all. Jeff

"Just think about what I am going to tell you."

No. You're wasting my time, and you're wrong. I posted the solutions, and you're ignoring them, asking me to explain myself, all over again. No, thanks. I'm not going to do all the work, twice.

By the way, Indiana, Ohio and Kentucky don't require the East Coasters to drive through Illinois. That's why they were mentioned, and that's why Missouri was omitted. Branson would be a very decent location, if not for the act of bringing a gun into Illinois. Vegas was included because it's probably the best place to hold the event, and it's time to show some respect to the West Coasters. East Coasters can drop down and avoid Illinois, altogether, on their way to Vegas. Many will fly and skip right over it.

Returning to Ohio makes sense and holds to the tradition, even if the prior club is gone.

I don't understand this sentence:

"there is nothing I would like better than to go to Vegas or Atlanta just to have lovely weather even if I don't shoot. RIGHT!!!!!! "

You are the master of avoiding what you have said like changing the subject like you have done with this one,

"No. You're wasting my time, and you're wrong. I posted the solutions, and you're ignoring them, asking me to explain myself, all over again. No, thanks. I'm not going to do all the work, twice.

You posted the solutions so tell us what clubs in Atlanta are large enough to hold the Grand??? How about Kentucky, Indiana or any of the other states you mentioned how many gun clubs in those states are large enough to host the Grand??? Your the one making up the solutions how about some useful facts that you haven't provided???

I will now change the subject you think you have all the answers. Well you have none you are by far the biggest BLOW HARD that has ever been on this site. You insult all shooters that post here most of whom have many, many more years, hours, minutes of experience than you will have ten years from now.

Yet those facts mean nothing to you your head is so inflated that to you your opinion is the only one that counts. I might add that the same head is so empty I surprised that when you open your mouth there isn't an echo.

I think there is only one solution you could come up with and I am not allowed to elaborate on the method of acquiring it on this site.

Bob Lawless

"You insult all shooters that post here most of whom have many, many more years, hours, minutes of experience than you will have ten years from now."

I'll probably be here ten years from now, too. Are you under 40? If not, your group is going to move out of the way, and new people and ideas are going to take over. Vegas has been repeatedly suggested. This is an attractive option for a lot of people. It will probably happen, or PITA will jump on it, give it a big name, and steal the ATA's thunder. There's nothing stopping the NSSA from changing the meaning of the second letter to "shotgun," or "shooting" and running their own Trap championship.

Nobody's getting insulted. You're just getting your feelings hurt because a lot of people want to change something you're happy with, and you don't have the ammo to fight them off.

By the way, "experience" in what, shooting, site selection, marketing, travel, shopping, dining?

Why not leave it where it is? It is, after all, at the best trapshooting facility in the world. Leave that for what? Something not as good? Why in the world would anyone want to do that?

OK some might want something not as good just because it is closer to them, but why should the rest of us put up with that? We are willing to go to the best place, just as we were willing to go to Vandalia when the Grand was there. If they are not willing to go to Sparta, that's their choice. They just can't go to the Grand, that's all.

Neil

Interesting observation:

Sparta was built by the State.

Las Vegas was built by the County (land courtesy of the BLM)

Could the Grand survive without public money? Maybe the folks at the Cardinal Center are on to something.

Are you under 40?

Say it isn't so there is something you don't have an answer for, a better suggestion for hard to believe with your track record.

BTW are you even old enough to drive????? Tell me how can someone your age become an expert in everything in such a short time. When your parents tell you something are you this thickheaded with them?

"Nobody's getting insulted. You're just getting your feelings hurt because a lot of people want to change something you're happy with, and you don't have the ammo to fight them off."

Fight them why would I do that I don't care what they change they give there opinions I give mine. They most of them have been around long enough to understand what is going on. Yo don't want to understand because to do that you have to read and understand. Your to busy writing to understand what other have written or why they have written it.

Do us all a favor crawl back under your rock and work with your solution machine for a while.

Bob Lawless

Bob, I've never seen your driver's license, so I have no idea how old you are. You can't attack me when I offer a conclusion AND when I ask a question. Doing so is just being bitter and nasty.

40 is really old. Lots of Trapshooters are older than that. All I'm saying is that the new people are going to have ideas that the previous people didn't.

No idea what this one is referring to.

"I've never seen your driver's license, so I have no idea how old you are."????

"You can't attack me when I offer a conclusion AND when I ask a question. Doing so is just being bitter and nasty."

Once again you are incorrect I can attack you any GD time I want to just what can you do about it. After all would that be any different than what you are doing?

"All I'm saying is that the new people are going to have ideas that the previous people didn't."

That is all you think you are saying. You tell everyone here how to think about what they already have formed opinions about. You make suggestions with no facts to back them up. You site states and cities where you say the Grand should be held like Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky, or Nevada cities like Atlanta, or Vegas. No facts like are there clubs that have enough Traps to host the grand.

So you think that is all you are saying? Well it would appear to many of us that you think you know more about the cities and states you mention and their capabilities of hosting the Grand than the rest he do. That is what all of your post here reek of you, you ,you. Everything is about you you give your opinion with a ludicrous statement and when someone opposes what you have said you attack. It all about you.

As an example Barry said,

"S357 - your continued lack of knowledge about ATA shooting continues to astound us."

Your reply was,

"Barry, you're badly missing the point and saying some goofy things. This discussion is about weather and logistics."

What does that have to do with your lack of knowledge about ATA shooting???

This discussion is not about weather or logistics it is about the location of the Grand. Of course you have made it about what you wish to talk about. The person that started this thread titled it about Grand locations. So what right. You have to tell everyone that it is about weather and logistics....DUH!!!!

Instead of just BLOWING SMOKE up everyone, er ah Skirt why don't you try to understand that you don't have all the answers!!!!! I give up I am once again going to stop trying to get through a Granite Block.

Bob Lawless

Ivanhoe -

No, I cannot guarantee the 40 will be enough but 120 appears to be way too many right now. Time will tell. 40 traps would be enough if the purses were compulsory! That's right. You play, you pay. That's going to start a real sh*tstorm I think. Just a thought. I would hope that that many are needed in the near future but I don't see that happening with the division there appears to be amongst the troops. For now, I guess I'd like to see 40 traps in several locations while the organization gets their s*it together.

I for one was one of those people that was not very happy to see the Grand leave Ohio. I got over it even though it was very convenient for me to run down there for a day if that's all the time I had and shoot a couple hundred targets but on the flip side, I also realize that there were many that were not afforded the same convenience that do now with the move to Sparta. Sooo, why not allow the grand to move around the country allowing others the same convenience? I keep hearing about the shooter base being located right where I am in the Mid-West. How many P.I.T.A. shooters and West coast ATA shooters are there that would come if the Grand moved to Vegas every 3 years or so? Any California Delegates out there that can answer thst or me? Yeah, You would lose the East coast for the most part but you'll pick up the West so that may be a wash as far as numbers. The Class A motor home brigade would go to Vegas or Timbuktu for that matter so they don't figure into this equation. I would fly to Vegas in the Fall every few years for the Grand. My wife would even go. It would be something to look forward to every few years. It's the little guys that you would be catering to for once. They are what is going to decide whether you live or die as an organization.

There are a whole lot more little indians than Chiefs in the ATA. It's about time the cheifs figured that part out and started putting their ears to the ground a little more often to hear whats going on. Seems like that unless you shoot at least 7,500 targets a year, your opinion doesn't count for much. You can't vote for change because you're not a life member and the ATA is too slow to figure out how to offer a life membership payment plan that actually makes sense to the average worker bee. The NRA added "easy pay life" about 17 years ago or so. They still have it because so many people take advantage of it. ATA wants all their money in one year. Probably not going to happen as often than if you spread it out like NRA does. $25 a quarter until you're a life member. For the NRA, that's 10 years. Do the math people. The ATA would be getting $100 a year from me instead of $20 for the next 5 years.

Jeff

Jeff I am not say you are wrong I just have a problem knowing that this and other threads of it nature are suggested because those that are making the suggestion. Feel that it would help attendance at the Grand. They don't seem to realize that for what ever the reason that the shooters come up with they are the one that are making the decision to go or not to go. If changes continue to be made because some don't like this or that eventually no one will go to any shoot unless it meets their spec. then no one will go to any of them!!!!

"I would hope that that many are needed in the near future but I don't see that happening with the division there appears to be among the troops."

This is what worries me if they were to allow the locations to change and the troops that are seemingly divided were all to go and there were not enough fields to accommodate everyone(40)it would be a bigger disaster than everyone thinks it is now. I don't think that would help the situation very much either.

I don't see it as a reason to cut off our noes to spite our faces.

Bob Lawless

Vegas in October does have a nice ring to it.

J.F.

"This discussion is not about weather or logistics it is about the location of the Grand."

AWESOME!

UTTERLY AWESOME!

Bob, that is one of the best circular arguments I've ever seen. Thank you. This will be added to my file of colossal logical fallacies.

Further, the five lines above that quote are also a riotous non sequitur, worthy of their own note, but you so outdid yourself in the quoted sentence that the battle was already won.

Bob, buddy, it becomes increasingly evident that you just don't quite grasp what's being said. Seriously, dude. Your responses are just insults, not arguments. It's like you don't know how to make an effective counter-argument.

All that blather above does nothing, and I mean nothing, to disprove the appeal of Vegas or other places as new locations. See? Do you "get it?" You rage against me, while making no contribution on the discussion of the larger point, so the argument advances, and all you've offered is "Don't wanna." Just digging in your heels won't help you win this.

Big Heap,

Your post above ..

"Interesting observation:

Sparta was built by the State.

Las Vegas was built by the County (land courtesy of the BLM)

Could the Grand survive without public money? Maybe the folks at the Cardinal Center are on to something."

Cardinal Center was build by a non shooter.. what is the difference??? Mr. Fishburn put millions of his own money into a business.. just as the state and county have put money into a business..

I'm sorry.. I'm missing your point ?? !! ??

We need to change the shoot date for sure. It's so stinking hot today (Sparta)you absolutely can't enjoy shooting. Skeet championships were changed to later in the year for the same reason, but at least they changed it..This sucks bad. GaryL.

Amarillo today: 96 degrees, heat index 93, humidity 22%

July was Las Vegas' HOTTEST month EVER!

For everyone's info, the Vegas site now has 24 traps. More are in the master plan, but with public money, who knows how many will actually be built.

Danny

Somebody took a college logic class.

If I read correctly, I thought they currently had 24 combination trap and skeet fields and 101 additional Trap Fields in the works. I think if they were given an event like the Grand, the necessary number of fields would suddenly materialize. Vegas is funny like that. Things just sort of happen and happen fast.

Jeff

The EC and powers that be picked Sparta over and above anyplace else that surfaced at the time even though there were a lot of people (members) who voiced their opinion against it for what ever reason ... Neil Winston is living proof that no matter what anybody thinks or why they think it the Grand is in Sparta, Illinois and will probably remain there as it strangles the life out of the ATA itself ... The EC/BOD knows but does not acknowledge the fact that the clubs and members who shoot at them who host ATA registered shoots are the soul support of the Association and has probably been the majority of income of the ATA ... The WSRC might be the best overall facility but it is not in the best place, once again as long as it only impacts the members and not the Brass Hats they really do not care ... You can bet the EC, Neil Winston, former EC and members of the Good Ol' Boys Club all have accomidations be it on site or close by so they could care less about the membership, which are the people who in fact support the ATA while the EC sucks the life out of the Association ... The attendance in Sparta keeps dropping so no one has to do anything other than sit back and watch as the EC allows it to happen and they get their expenses paid to attend other shoots across the coutry so they can have a meeting and call it a business trip ... The ATA needs a good house cleaning before it can be righted and put back on track ... WPT ... (YAC) ...