Thanks guys---I'll bring your thoughts back---Hope you have enough to compete against with that attitude---Not much help---sjb---

Southblue,

Plenty of ATA shoots in MI. and OH. camping spots are about full for the Cardinal Classic.

Have fun at the circle jerk.

If there were no ATA,, then we would not have to shoot ATA yardage at all the NON ATA shoots.. Example---50 bird calcutta, 100 bird calcutta.. Seriously though, I do not and I hope the ATA does not fold up.. I just started back into shooting registered, and I am going to Sparta for the first time to see what everyone is bitching about and I am from Ohio also..LOL-----Dave Oberst

I did not say the sport flourishes in just my area but from what I read on this post the sport only has maybe 10% shooters to suport the ATA and with that number the ATA must be in trouble---Looks like we have two groups and who is in our future---Happy shooting with your attitude---gL---sjb---

Shannon---count camp spots and then count targets shot aganist the past yrs and get back to me---Interesting---sjb---

sjb, Have you ever been to a big ATA shoot like the Grand or one of the larger state shoots? I'm not being a Smart ass, but it's more than just shooting trap. You'll have vendors, friends, camping, BBQ, guns and accessories for sale, and gun talk galore. You'll see all kinds of shooting styles and you can write down their squad number and later see if some of that funky stuff works. And competition, if you want it. I realise some don't.

Can't get all that a local club.

Can trapshooting survive without the ATA? I don't know, but it won't be as much fun.

Setterman---Yes,I have been to the N.J. state shoot---the PA state shoot---Silver $ shoot and I'll tell you that they are in trouble---I want the ATA to survive but I see shakey times ahead and I started this post asking if there is anything we can do to keep it alive and this thing is all out of hand--- check targets shot and you will get a feeling that we are in a free fall---Thanks for your feedback---sjb---

Setterman---You tested my memory about big shoots---This yrs N.J. state shoot had two venders and yrs past we had six to ten---why???the PA state shoot looked like a ghost town compared to yrs past in my opi---I am not sure about targets shot but I would like to check it out---Silver $ has all kinds of deals for house sites at great deals---wonder why---sjb---

southjblue

"Can this sport survive without the ATA?"

I have watched this thread all day Friday the 30th. I have tried to come up with an answer that I feel is correct. One thing keeps getting in the way and that thing is the above question.

I googled the question in a bunch of different ways. Under the different ways of asking that I tried "definition of a sport" seems to give me the most answers. There are a lot of different answers I linked one webpage above that touches on the question. In the end it say that Shooting isn't a sport.

Wikipedia says,

"A sport is commonly defined as an organized, competitive, and skillful physical activity requiring commitment and fair play"

Now a lot of people don't put any store by Wikipedia. Yet the definition that they give hardly sounds like the shooting of rounds at the local club.

I suggest that if the ATA dies there is no sport of trap shooting!!!!! I have shot many rounds at the local clubs in my area and I do not find it to be what I call "Trap Shooting" sure it is shooting but in most cases it is a hobby a pass time something to do for spending time with your buddies. Usually after the guys that are shooting finish they put the guns away and start the social aspects of the local club.

Ask yourself a question at your local club if they don't shoot ATA. Do they have handicap walkways. If so how far back do they go? To the 27yd line? If so why? Isn't that an ATA mandate??? If so why does the local club have a 27yd line they sure don't need it if there isn't any ATA there. First post says,

"I know there are many in my area shoot and have a good time without the ATA"

Well I can't find anything is the rule or definition of sports that has fun or a good time as a criteria. So I think we should be asking is there still a sport with out the ATA.

So NO is my answer I don't think the sport can survive without the ATA. Trap Shooting will continue but the sport will not. Believe it or not shooting can and will continue if and when something happens to the ATA. JMO

Bob Lawless

southjblue, I'm going to ruffle some feathers here I'm sure, lump me into the idiot group I guess. I'll answer you question from a common sense view point, and say Yes, trap shooting can survive with out the ATA. But, there's always a but.

It will the games shooters, meat shoots, turkey shoots, league shooters, hunters practice, and club croonies. They are the shooters that I feel you're talking about around your club. I fact is that they're competitors, and are competing the same as the ATA shooters. They're all shooting for some prize of one kind or another. Even if dad and son bet a soft drink during hunter practice, or the club croonies play a skins game while shooting their targets, it's still competing of some kind. You can't tell me that shooters are not out just for fun. Even if there's no prize or bet, you'll hear the phase " I'll get you next time". There will always be some kind of organized trap being shot at many club.

NOW, will the ATA fold? I don't believe they will, and for some horrible reason they did. There would be people like some on here that would form an organization to take there place. If not the the traditions, history, and guidelines of the ATA (American Trap Assoc or Amateur Trap Assoc, all your trap clubs would be set up different. If you want to talk to your club members about the ATA, do so relating the traditions, history, and how they got to shoot trap in the first place. The club owner didn't just pull all of safety, walk ways, machine setting out of their arses. If you truly want more ATA members, you have to be a salesman, and sell it. When the games shooters, league shooters and meat shooters start holding a National Championship, the they need a governing body as well. Thanks David

If there was no ATA, would you be able to choose your own handicap yardage? I could use about a 5 yard reduction. ;-)

Also, I like shooting registered shoots because there is a significantly less chance that you'll end up on or next to an entire squad of drunks. Every local club I ever shot at had at least one team that would get liquored up before they came out to shoot league. When confronted, I believe their response was, "We just come here to have fun!".

Trap already does exist without the ATA.

The ISSF governs bunker trap in this country.

The Aussies have the Australian Clay Target Association, and I'm sure other countries have their own organizations.

http://www.claytarget.com.au/

There are a lot of trapshooters out there that do not belong to the ATA could give a rat's ass about it. Some of those folks used to belong to it but will never return.

The ATA is supposed to provide shooters with a service. Ed would probably tell you that in the service business that customers are a bit fickle in that if you don't earn their respect and trust everyday, they leave.

Earl's point about the lack of younger shooters is spot-on also. A big part of that problem is that it just plain costs too much to participate. Auto racing died the same death ($).

Reduce the cost, bring in some integrity, or read about it in the history books.

Jon Reitz

There is no law or rule that says a club, any club cannot host a shoot without having the ATA involved ... The ATA gets big money when they get involved with the Satelite Grands and the bigger shoots all across the country for what they call ATA trophys and mailing the programs in most instances ... The amount of money also obviously assures that some of or a bunch of the EC will show up and be compensated for doing so probably out of the money paid to the ATA for their being involved ... That plus the fact that those who show up want to be taken care of and attended to with food, a bar set up, and a place to sit and relax away from the very people they are supposed to represent (ATA members) ... The EC is supposed to "judge" the shootoffs but if they don't get what they expect they don't do anything except stand around and take up space while giving people who didn't bow down to them and their desires dirty looks, in this case that would of been me ... They did lose a radio that cost the club over $600 to replace and the ATA would not accept the blame for it ... The club paid close to $17,000 to the ATA for the Spring Grand package when it was still at the old Phoenix Club and then they said they ever got the check when I signed and mailed it myself beside checked the records and it cleared our bank, beyond that who knows ..? Yes, Trapshooting can survive without the ATA but the ATA isn't going anywhere any time soon because of the support of the clubs collecting the daily fees from members, which no doubt are the biggest part of the ATA's support and income ... The ATA will be stronger after a really good house cleaning and elimination of the benefit packages for the EC, that you can count on ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

If Trapshooting is a pastime rather than a sport and the RV'ers enjoy shooting, I suggest the ATA establish a portable trap field that can be set-up near RV camps.

A portable Pat Trap could be set-up in a field near a group of RV'ers and the fun could begin. Easier than building and maintaining a clubhouse and grounds and new people could be introduced to the pastime which would solve our decreasing numbers problem.

Shooting targets that rise from behind a bale of hay and standing on a walk that is covered with crushed rock adds some new fun to the game. I know because I've done it in several different locations.

The question could also be asked, "Why would a 10-20 handicapper belong to the USGA? They will never play in a professional tournament." "Why would someone belong to Ducks Unlimited, that doesn't shoot ducks?" "Why would someone belong to AAA who has never had a car towed?"

All have a benefit, it may not be the "main" benefit of the organization.

The question could also be asked, "Why would a 10-20 handicapper belong to the USGA? They will never play in a professional tournament." "Why would someone belong to Ducks Unlimited, that doesn't shoot ducks?" "Why would someone belong to AAA who has never had a car towed?"

All have a benefit, it may not be the "main" benefit of the organization.

I realy don't know what to say but I will try---I have read all threads so far and they all seem to be very interested in our sport and it's future,some positive and some negative---I appreciate the thread from Ivanhoe---He and I had some bad feelings some time ago but he had the guts to chime in and give his thoughts,and thanks to all for your feedback---My feelings are that we need the ATA---I love to go and watch the big dogs go at it---for me I am way beyoud the need to compete--I have too many things on my plate(golf,trap,fishing,decoy carving,hunting)so to compete is tough but I love the game.Trapshooting for me started many yrs ago---We used to compete amongst our gunning clubs(8) at the time---each club had a trap in the back yard and each week we would go and shoot against each other---no ATA rules were involved but I must say we had the most fun---You should have seen the guns we used,most were the guns we were going to hunt with---My point is that you don't need an orgination to have fun but it helps---I am going to continue to pay my membership to the ATA and hope that it will survive.Thanks to all and please continue to give your feedback---sjb---

'Registered trapshooting, whether it be ATA or PITA is where it's at. Anything else is just jerkin" off.'"

And what is wrong with that?

NOt all, but most of you guys are full of Computer BS. Go shoot 3000 ATA targets a year and then tippy-tap the same crap you poste dabove. YOu do not have that courage. Why? Cause you might fail.

It's boring to me. But that's what's great about trapshooting. It can be enjoyed at a lot of different levels.

I admit it, I used to be addicted to trapshooting. I'm a recovered targetaholic. Because shooting well enough to win at registered shoots every weekend was nothing short of mandatory, I spent every Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday evening at clubs shooting leagues and practice to stay sharp. I probably would have shot on Monday and Friday evenings if any clubs around here were open then. It got to be a job, one I thought I enjoyed but work none the less. In 2005, my vision problem surfaced and in 2006 I shot just 600 registered targets in three state shoot singles championships. Three 197s do nothing in AA or AAA and while a .9850 average is not shabby, I decided to stop shooting registered targets for a few years to see if the eye was going to improve.

I consider that decision one of the best I've ever made in life. I rediscovered all kinds of things - gun collecting, hunting, fishing, sprint car racing and even my family. As the sprint car technical inspector at William Grove Speedway, I even get paid to attend the races for free - more "play" money for guns!

Our son and I are going to our gun club this morning but not to shoot trap - we have test loads to shoot in some rifles. Last night, we filled out our PA Game Commission applications for the first round of unsold antlerless deer licenses which can be submitted tomorrow and had a telephone discussion about which Wildlife Management Units we wanted to get tags for. Simply put, not living at gun clubs showed me how much of life I was missing out on.

Now, when I shoot trap, which amounts to 100 or (occasionally) 200 practice or league targets each week, I go to the club in the morning when it is cooler out, shoot my targets and some bull and am back home by noon instead of that evening. And it's a lot less like a job and a lot more fun.

Finally, I have saved many thousands of dollars in entry fees, shells, reloading components and travel expenses. Almost all of that savings is in my safe in the form of guns I've always wanted and the things that money purchased will be there for me to enjoy until I might elect to convert them into something else, since they are an investment instead of an expense.

Over the past four years, I have met and/or exchanged emails with a lot of trapshooters who have experienced the same thing and feel as I do about the sport - it's supposed to be fun, not work, and it costs a whole lot less and is a lot more enjoyable if you treat it that way.

Jason and I are ATA life members and my gun safe houses seven trap guns. We just don't always have one in our hands these days.

Ed

Ed---Your thread is the best of all in my opinion---Life can be full of things to do other than trapshooting---I don't have the time to shoot 3000 targets (reg) a yr---Right now I am into golf---I can't stand to shoot 100 targets in 90+ degree heat that puts you there for an hr or more just to keep a record---In golf you hit your shot and you can go find shade till the nxt shot--It is 77 degree here today and I am going to the trap club and will shoot 100 reg becaue it is comfortable---Trap is fun and will always be part of my life but not my job---Note I said I will shoot some reg targets today---Thats what is important to keep the ATA alive and I wish more would do the same---I think all trapshooters can contribute $20.00 to the ATA---If you are afraid to fail trapshooting try playing golf---you fail 90% of the time but what a challenge.

Just my thoughts---sjb---

There seems to be a lot of people who have discovered that there is a lot more to life than trapshooting based on the over all numbers ... I, myself have gotten back into a bunch of things I set to the side when I was doing a lot of trapshooting and sitting around all day to get in 100 or 200 more handicap targets ... I have bowled on as many as 6 leagues (32 weeks) in one season, every night but Saturday and I could get all 6 leagues in, in about the same amount of time as sitting at the gun club all day Sunday waiting my turn to shoot 200 targets ... I paid $1767.00 in entry fees for all 6 leagues which is about 17 trapshoots give or take a few dollars either way ... I also got back into classic cars which like Ed said is an investment, not an expense but now I need a much bigger garage to do it right ... I enjoy shooting trap and seeing all of the people I have met over the years but its not all that I think about anymore ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

It's the economy. People can't afford the pleasures that they once enjoyed. That's why there are fewer trap shooters. Some of the older guys don't get their kids into it because they know that if they do, then they will be footing the bill for even MORE shells and fees (and guns and equipment). They know that even if they get the kid into shooting, that once he gets into college the kid will most likely quit for a long while because of the expense alone.

Trap shooting is not down because everyone is angry with the ATA.

I agree with Gary Waalkes and others about the club shooters. The only complaints that I've ever heard lodged against the ATA with my own ears were from Pennsylvania and Ohio shooters. Most of those shooters were guys that were capable of shooting 25 straights and stringin' them together for 50s at league shoots...local heros. But they would choke every time they went to the PA shoots. Because they couldn't be their daddy's sons at the good old boys' local clubs anymore. There was real competition.

Real competition is why I like the ATA. The ATA with its bylaws creates consistent rules for ALL competitors, provides a way for any shooter in any state to measure his/her skills against those of every other *competitive* shooter in the nation (not club shooters), provides a forum for resolving conflicts and complaints, takes care of our trapshooting history, and organizes some phenomenomally large shoots.

The ATA will live despite of the bumps in the road and the incessent smear campaigns from the detractors. As far as I can see, the ATA haters have only one really good shooter that is their hero...on the other hand the ATA has quite a few outstanding shooters within its fold.

I get the impression that the so called "Haters" are the people who's opinion does not appear to be the same as other people who feel that the ATA can do no wrong and is the perfect little organzation who promotes trapshooting and sportmanship ... There is obviously more than one glitch in the Association that has to be corrected to eliminate the secrets, lack of communication, and personal gains of the chosen few ... The so called Haters might only be people who really do care and remember what the ATA was like before it all got changed and turned into the "Good Ol' Boys Club" some years ago ... Name calling will not change anything, but resolve to hold those accountable for their actions can make it better for everyone by everyone in the long run ... I have been a Life Member for over 35 years and have witnessed many changes that were not in the best interest of the ATA and its members, I'm sure there are many others besides myself ... Concern has nothing to do with Hate, that you can be sure of ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

Bill, nothing is ever perfect. We all know that. Constructive criticism in always a good thing, but there are too many that just slam the ATA and its shooters all of the time, calling them snobs and implying that we are stupid for spending extra money just so we can get our names in a magazine. Those people are making excuses to themselves and everyone else for their poor performance, and then they like to kibbitz about how the ATA is "goin' down" because it makes them feel superior.

The ATA is not going down. It's going through some bumps. Changes will be made and the organization will go on. It will never be perfect. Nothing ever is.

recurvy,

So, we do agree ... I totally respect your postings and at times could not agree more, but other times I think I tend to see things from different perspectives and in all honesty, thats okay ... I believe we are all hoping that the things that need to be changed, get changed to make the Association much stronger and member friendly ... I send all the best and hope your on the mend and get better real soon ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

I just left an ATA shoot---There were at least 200 shooters and it is still going on---Many came 75mi or more---It's the competion they came for---If it wern't for the ATA I don't think there would even be a shoot---Thats why we have to find a way to keep it going---Just my thought---sjb---

Thanks, Bill. I appreciate your well-wishes very much.

Yes, we agree. I would like to see some things changed for the ATA to be healthier. I expressed that in Phil's survey before I ever got wind of all the stuff that was being stated here on ts.com.

It makes no logical sense to say that if there was no ATA, there would be no large Trap shoots. Reality is the enemy of imagination.

Recurvy archer, With all due respect, you haven't been around long enough to understand some of the true concerns of this fight. Your discriptions of the concerned, as a whole, are lacking as well. How many times have you shot the old grand?, or did you ever shoot it? That was a time when you could see how the membership was being taken advantage of. We spent 2.00 per hunderd extra for a relocation fee, only to find out that Tom Aklin spent over $90,000.00 trapesing all over the country looking for a suitable Grand spot. He wasn't the only one, there was also another EC member that expensed more than that on the same purpose. In addition to that he also recived $16,000.00 +- for his presidential gun, of which there is no provision in the ATA bylaws for them to recive! This is bitterness that has festered for years and Ohio shooters have the outlook they have probally because they have been around it the most and have seen what really goes on. I can assure that no one loves to compete at big shoots more than I do, and it is for that reason that I realize that we must take responsibility for our own orginazation by learning as many facts as possible, listen to both sides and voice your final concerns as loud and as often as you can. This is our organization and thus our responsibility to do so! EARNIE ROSS III

Smoking357 - your imagination is the enemy of common sense.

"I realize that we must take responsibility for our own orginazation by learning as many facts as possible, listen to both sides and voice your final concerns as loud and as often as you can."

Well Devi there you have your responsibilities in a nut shell. That is of course as long as you remember,

"you haven't been around long enough to understand some of the true concerns of this fight. Your discriptions of the concerned, as a whole, are lacking as well. How many times have you shot the old grand?, or did you ever shoot it?"

Well Devi I would guess you will be just fine as long as you understand that what you think isn't right unless you stop thinking what you are thinking and think what you are being told to think. Just ask EARNIE, he has spoken.

So I guess from what I am getting. If you haven't shot the "old grand" you won't be qualified because you haven't been around long enough. So as I understand it if you have never shot Vandalia you don't have the qualifications to understand. That sure says a lot for the future of this sport.

Personally I think you are entitled to think what ever way you wish. When ever you wish. Also it seems to me you paid your dues you can speak and think as you please. I mean if Toking357 can give his opinion on when and where the Gand should be held you can say what you want.

BTW Devi do what your Dr. tells you and get well soon.

Bob Lawless

Earnie...with all due respect you have me wrong. The issues which you have stated are the things that I think should be changed. I may have only been in the sport for 4 years, but my husband has been in it for more than 40 and was a delegate for many years, and we have been having discussions about the history and politics of this sport ever since I met him. I also have had discussions with many others that have been in the sport for longer than Martin. Actually, I started learning everything I could about trapshooting before I met Martin. This sport is a lifestyle for me, and I care about it very much.

You've got me wrong, we don't disagree. I took the time to read through ALL of the posts and the letters and recommendations that are currently on the table and are in question, and I agree with them. I think Frank Rively and the gentleman that performed the audit are correct. But I have had MORE than my fill of negativity. If you want to effect a change, organize and work from the ground up...don't tear down and throw the baby out with the bathwater.

And I can tell you that the average PA/Ohio shooters that I knew had disdain for ATA shooters SOLEY based on what I said I heard when living and shooting around there ("ATA shooters are whiners, can't shoot, ATA does nothing for you")...because I never heard them complain about transparency issues or anything related to the EC. The fact is the newer shooters at the small clubs were parroting this same negativity, and they hadn't even tried registered shooting, but were being influenced by older guys at the clubs. Now THAT'S a way to ensure the growth of your sport.

No, I never got to shoot Vandalia. Although I know a lot of people that loved it, those same people told me things that they hated about it (crime-ridden area, hard to park cars, camping spots were ridiculously tight, etc etc). I prefer to listen to the people who tell me all of the great things about Vandalia, just as I'd rather hear people tell me about about the great things about Sparta. I happen to like Sparta. I probably would have loved Vandalia, too.

What I'm saying, and I hope that you are *listening*, is that you can usually get what you want through organization and hard work and exposure, but the negativity can be left behind. There is way too much of it these days. You will drive people away, and for every one you drive away, there are more behind him/her. Not good.

Well spoken as always Devi. Best wishes for a speedy re-hab. Bob

Recurvyarcher, your attempt to equate local PA league shooters as a bunch of losers, never was beens, bitchers and complainers is certainly not true. I suggest many of these same shooters shot ATA targets successfully for many years but some are no longer enchanted with the direction registered shooting has taken. Expensive fun with little hope of a return on investment. Not everyone thinks spending an entire day at a Trapshoot sitting around in a motor home waiting to shoot, and often imbibing, is a favorite American pastime.

I suggest you tell Steve Huber, Larry Shade, Dick Shuman (only around 23- registered 200 straights to his credit) and even Dr. Frank Rively, who are or were members of our local league that they fit your description!!

Imbibing---Thats a good one---Haven't done that for awhile--Have to send that to O'Riely---sjb---

Southblue, sorry if I'm showing my age but I was being gentle!!

Thats O.K.---It gave me an early morning laugh---Keep your cards and letters coming---sjb---

Hey Oleo---Just saw on the early news that older brains work better---sjb---

Yo southblue, Absolutely correct I agree. They say alcohol keeps the brains synapses uncloged. That pitcher of Miller Lite last night and another day older has a positive effect!!

Ya for you OLEO---life is to short not to imbibe---Give em hell---sjb---