See wasn't it worth the wait to read it for yourselves. Brad

Actually, if that's the smoking gun that was dropped at the scene of The Great ATA Heist, it's turning out to be closer to a kid's cap pistol than a Thompson submachine gun. The figures seem kind of high, but not all that other-worldly.

If you aren't happy with the current ATA leadership, wait till you see what you get when you tell them that they get no pay AND no expense reimbursement.

Hell, I thought this was going to finally be the expose that details all the secret millions of dollars spirited away after that sweetheart land deal in Southern Illinois.

I'm sure the IRS will shortly decide to apply a little extra scrutiny to the ATA, and anything too far out of the norm will be addressed.

Meanwhile, the bigger issue is that $350,000 average yearly loss for the last few years. That's something more worrisome.

Now let's see how the ATA and the EC play this one down. It appears as though it really hasn't been a figment of our imagination after all, has it? The "good old boy" syndicate we have been talking about and telling you about is about to be cracked. For years, the EC has surrounded themselves with people that were like minded and wanted a piece of the "free ride" at the cost of the general membership. Brad and a few others have been on here warning us that the fox was watching the hen house, but many of you just belittled him, called him names, and generally did not believe him..... As the old saying goes, 'HOW DO YOU LIKE ME NOW?!

The truth will always win out. Here, in these letters and documents, is absolute proof. Not rumor. Not hearsay. Just facts and figures. It's about time this all came to light.... Dan Thome (Trap2)

SS if you haven't read the Draft Report and the Recommendations, you might oughta: today's IRS is not yesterday's IRS, and there are some 'best practices' involved, too.

Bob

Sorry, I still don't get it. Travel is expensive and if that is reimbursible that is what I see. If you have to travel from i.e. Maine to Illinois the expenses are going to be greater than someone traveling from MO to IL. Then there is the length of stay as well...they have to go early and stay late. The EC has to do what is necessary to keep things running smoothly. What do you want the executives to do? Stay in a tent?

When I said I'll bite I thought this might be bogus. That being said is there more to this story? I agree with Singleshot but I don't think the figures are high for all that travel. I also think the executive director should reserve the right to conduct an audit upon taking over. That would be the first part of measuring how he will take the organization from A to A+ and knowing where it stands to begin with. But then, what do I know, I'm just a member.

Any violations of the 501(c)(3) tax exempt code when it comes to reimbursement for business or pleasure come into play here too! Receiving a new 16,500 dollar shotgun falls under which sub section? I'd wager the smart ones asked for a 1099 along with their new toy too? If we lose that 501(c)(3) tax exemption, that could cost the organization a lot of dollars!!!

Elect your delegates very carefully brothers and sisters, our sports future depends on that selection as they climb the ladder to the top! Looks as though we haven't chosen wisely enough in the past the way I read this fiasco?

Hap

"PUBLIC CHARITY"......What a crock.....That's funny.....I would have expected something like that out of Peloshi and her ilk.

Y'all want to save your organization.......FIRE THEM ALL

Taxpayer subsidized public charity.....OMG!!!!!

Take note that the expenses were all within a few hundred??????????????

%~)

Thanks to Bob Glatz and Doc Rively. Here's hoping their leadership will put things right.

Question: Why is there no explaination of where the additional dollars came from on the Additional Supplemental Disclosure? Did those additional dollars come from a different allocated source or operations fund that should not be lumped in with travel reimbursements/expenses? When did the Presidential Gun come to be? How were the funds for the gun supposed to be reported? There is no attempt to hide the funds or keep it secret. It's all right there. The designation as a "not for profit organization" means that the money that comes in, goes out and there are no profits to report or taxes to pay on profits. ( Museums have this same status even with all their wealth and paid (well compensated) employees.) It has nothing to do with charity except for the ability to receive donations from supporters. If the dollar figures are all there, obviously, why is there a problem? Were those tax status forms filled out properly at their inception in 2005? Why didn't Rively hire an independent auditor (not a friend) to do a complete audit? I don't get it but at any rate this dispute does not help trapshooting.

My opinion is the sort of "Cover up" that was in (Or NOT in) the disclosures, along with violations of the 501 laws...

Bob Glatz and Doc Rively were trying to convey this information for quite a while to the EC, without having a mess on their hands. Looks like the EC didn't like what was being presented, so they chose to take retalitory action against the "Messengers"...

I heard several Delegates taking sides with the EC on this subject over the weekend...What am I missing here ? Am I not reading two sets of figures on the discolsures ? One set for "Us Pee-ons" to see, and the true ones for EC EYES ONLY ??? We as a membership, are only asking the EC to be above board with us.

Mr. Glatz has brought to light many unanswered questions, and I feel they must be true or he would never have done this.

Am I reading something no one else is ???

Dave in SC

The only reason I see two sets of figures is because someone created another set of figures. Like I said, they didn't pull the figures out of a hat. The additional dollars logged on there had to be verified and allocated from somewhere else. The dispute seems to be where they are attributed Travel Expense or other, but the point is the $ are shown somewhere. This sounds like a disagreement on the presentation of the facts and not the facts themselves that now has escalated out of control. By the way, I've never been treated like a peon by anyone in the ATA. "Newbie" yes, peon no.

^

Neil

Were you reimbursed $7475 by the ATA for travel expenses in 2009???

Jerry

The most troubling part is the intended cover-up and the admonishment of Rively. This in itself shows the nature of the EC.

Definitely time for a change and as the President of the Delaware Trapshooting Assoc., our Delegate will be questioned as to his intentions before he heads out to the Grand.

Violation(s) of the Public Trust is not a forgiveable offense!!

Curt

First, I have no problem with reimbursing our leaders for direct expenses, including travel expenses. I am confused about the apparent different reported numbers. I do recognize that accountants can more figures into different columns but I usually don't understand why they do that.

Pat Ireland

You can have your personal opinion of the reimbursements, but when a man with Bob Glatz' credentials says, "However, I remain very concerned

that what you are doing is a violation of law and IRS Regulations and could reflect very badly upon the ATA and potentially lead to the loss of the

organization’s 501(c)(3) status.", I think a prudent person should sit up and take notice.

I have found a way to post access to Glatz' letter and the attachments he sent out via email. These links should take you to his letter, attachment with recommendations and observations and the attachment with recommendations and conclusions for the Exec Committee of ATA:

http://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B6BK54lrs8I0YzlkNWI1MmItMTU3OS00ZTJlLTg3NzAtNDNiNzQwNmYyZGQx&hl=en

http://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B6BK54lrs8I0YTI2MWIzNTktZGYyOS00YzYwLWFhOTctNjJkOWE1ZjQwZTI2&hl=en

http://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B6BK54lrs8I0M2FjMjJlY2ItOGRiYS00ODliLWI5MzMtNTRkNzZkY2MwYmU2&hl=en

If they are not live links then copy and paste into your browser.(You will have to copy and paste them.)

This information was sent to me by several different concerned ATA members.

Brad, wish we had time to entertain the troops about this...I have to be in Sparta by Thursday so my time at home this week is very limited. Come to the Grand and we can beat this horse to death, together....hope to see you and Ann there....karla

After spending most of my Corporate life traveling, these costs are not out of line. When you get "NO PAY" for your services, who is going to do the job if they also have to pay the expense's for doing the "NO PAY" job. Get real....

I travel a lot for work too, $17,000+ in travel expenses? You eat and drink whether you are traveling or at home. How much of the total cost is food for others, bar bills, shells, entry fees, etc. A detail breakdown of the expenses is required.

It's a hobby, not a job.

And why does it take 8 people spending that kind of money? Does the Ohio BOD do this? Guess the answer.

If the ATA was a business, and you were an ATA stockholder, would it piss you off?

Karla, It's not the dead horse that bothers me, it's the stink and rotting carcass and the disease it causes. Once again I won't be at SPARTA, although it is tempting and it should be one hell of a deligate meeting don't you think. Send me the video please.

Kiner called me Sat. and I spent about an hour on the phone with him. He's doing his survey and I'm starting one. Do you consider yourself a sholver or a mushroom, sometimes in the dark it's hard to tell, but the sun rises earlier in Ohio than in Missouri. Not being either, I'm an observer, I have my opinion on which you are but I would like yours. Brad

First of all Thank you Mr. Dysinger first for your concern and second for making the existence of this information available To ATA members.

I do however wish a little more thought had been given to the facts. Not everyone reading these threads is an ATA member. I do not think that financial records should be posted on a public forum.

Especially in view of the fact that disclosing these records just might cause irreparable damage to the Association. There was another way to do this that wouldn't have exposed the internal problems of the ATA to the general public unfortunately I think now it is a little late

This isn't good for business as it should be. I do believe every ATA member has a right to see these records but only ATA members. Not the general public or other organizations or associations. JMO

Bob Lawless

This is obviously a mistake because the Members of the EC has said many times over how much it costs for them to volunteer their services and the cost for them to attend meetings, the Grand American, and so forth claiming all they get is a Hat ... There is no wonder the members or Life Members don't get the Financial Profit and loss Statements anymore like they did at one time many years ago ... The last Financial report I got was marked "Confidential" by the sender, this eliminates the wondering why ... The records should be gone over for the past 10 years or so and then the findings should be turned over to the IRS for collection being as this would be considered income in most cases especially when it goes against the by laws of the Corporation ... The Good Ol'Boys Club is obviously alive and well within the confines of the ATA ... These so called stand up gentlemen are not much of anything other than thieves at best and should be held to the laws of the land just like any other common thieves would be ... I pray they all get their due, Paybacks, are a bitch ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

Bob, I've been talking and thinking about this for over twenty years, if you don't believe me just ask the shooters that know me. I have never had the access to the books that Bob and Frank did but I've known enough of the players over the last 38 years to know the basic facts. This form and the light of day is exactly what the ATA needs. If shielding a few at the top is the only way an organization can exist then it should and will die. Saying that remember Pan Am, Eastern, and TWA airlines are all no more but I don't need to tell you that the ability to get a plane to anywhere in the world is much eaiser today than ever. Trapshooting will either survive on it's own merrits as a sport, recreation, or hobby or won't, not on which organization is running it.

I've never been one to wonder who is watching and reading. But again I have nothing to hide. Brad Dysinger

Brad: If your idea is to tear apart the ATA., then by all means stay home. If your intent is to help reform the ATA then you should go. You don't have to like the state in which the grand is in right now and you sure dont have to shoot. But being a member if the hall of fame, and a non-advocate of the ATA you should be there on behalve of the members.

Trapshooter1, shooting the messenger is highly popular these days it seems? If wrong doing is proved beyond a shadow of doubt, how can you accuse Brad Dysinger of destroying anything? Your mushroom mentality is showing with such chosen words. Brad D. hasn't changed a thing or his opinions but it certainly looks as though something else has?? Knowing Brad, he isn't going to back away from what he believes in either, regardless of how the truth is "spun?" He is a true hall of fame shooter and rightfully so!

Hap

Kind of sounds like " Days Of Our Lives"

Looks to me that Brad HAS been trying to reform the ATA. Unfortunately, this bunch views reformation as disclosure and not to be shared with it's members. Their attempts to censure Rively's investigation sure stinks. I'm quite positive that Frank has the best interests of the ATA in his sights. Having known Frank well over 20 years his integrity and willingness to succeed are not to be questioned.

Now what does Sparta and Brad have do do with this investigation-nothing or plenty!!

You say tomAto, I say Toma to...potAto, Pota to....

HAP: I either wrote this wrong or you took it wrong. I appreciate what Brad has done all along and just wish he would go and speak for us at this meeting. I am sorry I sent the wrong message. Maybee I should have chose my words better. I disagree with him sometimes about where the grand is, but I have a lot of respect for him as a member and shooter. I feel he knows how to put in words what he feels and wish he would be at the meeting to try to support us in this.

Trapshooter1..... I don't think this thread is about Brad Dysinger and his feelings towards the ATA, and whether he goes to the Grand or not. None of that matters in the slightest here. What this thread is all about is the exposure of the road taken by the EC that goes directly against what they have claimed on here for years. See WPT's post above, as Bill remembers the same posts I do...... The truth hurts, especially when you are the one that gets caught, right? Get ready for some more major fabrications on the part of the EC to try to justify this behavior..... Brad's right, the delegates meeting at Sparta will be one hell of a good show. When it's over, perhaps we will have some idea of those delegates that are actually working for us, and those that are not...... Dan Thome (Trap2)

I encourage everyone to read the entire package including Bob's recommendations. It is easy to get side tracked by the expense reimbursement issue. While that in it self is bad, Bob goes on to point out why this has happened and what we should do to fix it so it doesn't happen again. Our organization has organizational design issues and the problems are not going away until we fix those core problems. Read the whole package, study Bob's recommendations and then call your delegate and start the lobbying to get them to vote the package in and put Bob in charge of getting it implemented.

Mark Zauhar

EDIT: I'm deleting my earlier comments after reading the actual documents instead of the portions posted above. All I'll say is this is not something that I like seeing splashed on the net, but changes are in order.

The last thing the ATA needs is a take over. Recommendations are just that reccommendations, not to diminish anyone's stature. Frankly, I sense throughout this site that Vandalia did everything right and was wonderful and Sparta is less than that although I found Sparta to be wonderful, never having been to Vandalia. Sorry Vandalia Guys, Sparta is the future of Trapshooting. Don't ruin it for the newbies. Errors if they are indeed errors need correcting. The sky doesn't have to fall. I read the letter and it does say it is about the "travel expense" reports but it does not clarify what about the reports is deficient. And another thing, why does the presentation of a President's trophy gun award amount to compensation? I see this as an award instead of a crystal bowl or placque not in lieu of a paycheck. Furthermore, has anyone read the reports of the April 2010 meeting? If not why not? I am willing to bet when all is said and done this is "much ado about nothing" otherwise known as why don't I get reimbursement?

As others have stated, the travel reimburements don't seem out of line. What i question is the $300k / year operating losses. I must have my head in the sand because all they do that I'm aware of is maintian the website and manage the rules & regs. Given that I suspect management of the rules & regs is done by the EC, that leaves managing the website and keeps member scores up to date.

Other than the website, where is money being spent & how much?

Pete

Take the time to read the above disclosures and if that don't make you think then you have a problem ... There is no way this can have a positive effect on the EC, the ATA, and or the future of the Association itself ... They have done it to themself over time by making claims of one thing and taking the advantages of something else by deception ... No surprises here kids ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

Brad I am not questioning your motives or your integrity. I just thought that using a different method to distribute the financial records. It could have been handled in a better way.

I am seeing people in to much of a hurry to get to the dirt. Putting those that have made an honest effort in what they thought was an honest association. In the position of looking foolish.

Namely the everyday member who are now looking at their dirty laundry of their association being aired to those who haven't paid for the privilege of seeing it

I am pretty sure that if Mr. Glatz had thought it a good idea to air the finances publicly he would have posted the records on the web.

There has apparently already been enough careless handling of the memberships business without compounding it. I am not against notifying the members I would also like to spare them any embarrassment or scorn that may occur from incorrect handling of the information. I also wound have been willing to aid or spear head an effort to see that those that want the information would get it.

That is my sole motivation for that stance an statement. Again no personal criticism is intended. I know I received the documents from a friend in an email and I thank him for sending it to me. There was however no information as to what was coming in his mail, at least not that was apparent at the time.

Bob Lawless

I disagree 870. This IS the place to start a change. In the past, too many issues have been swept under rugs with blended reports and obscure justifications. A new expense system has to be adopted, and it should be one that is open book to the membership. The Membership is the ATA, not the EC.

I've checked on the OSTA. Our directors get $300 a year. Consider the ratio of responsibility, and the difference is out of proportion.

What Mark Zauhar said.

It's pretty important to remember that good ol' boys can still run a (c)(3) corp, but there are different rules that have to be followed.

I'll make a new post with RRG's two pages of specific recommendations/conclusions.

Bob

Setterman, it's not good in light of the tax issues. Yes, change will certainly occur now, and that is good. It would have been better if the change could have occured without this though.

I have been a life member for almost forty years, and am proud of that. I believe an honest rep. should not mind in the least for his expenses to be shown to the members.

Thanks, Brad for speaking up.

Old Folks

I agree 870, but imagine if the Glatz/Rively info had not been made "public". No one would be the wiser, and there would be no heat from the membership. Hopefully, the flame is lit.

As Dan T. said, this isn't about Brad D. at all and to make him seem a scrape goat in any fashion is also wrong!

Trapshooter1, it's entirely possible I read into your post something you meant in a different way, if so, I do apologize.

"If your idea is to tear apart the ATA., then by all means stay home. If your intent is to help reform the ATA then you should go."

Trapshooter1, Brad Dysinger isn't saying anything about tearing apart the ATA! He has said many times he firmly believes several things were awry in the inner workings of ATA and he has a right to that opinion. If this letter is proved as the truth, so too, does it validate his suspicions? Why would he want to assist in furthering any deceptive actions with his influences? Besides that being said, the EC wouldn't give him the time of day at Sparta in any meeting! You either stand on your beliefs and convictions or you fall for the flavors of the day, Brad D. doesn't do the latter well at all!

Hap

Those that have worked on boards of directors for organizations will have expenses that can be paid by associations represented. It's easy to snipe at officials who hold these offices and assume they are abusing the system when they may be innocent of any true wrong doing. Did it get out of control considering the economic environment and have we been worthy porters of the association?

In our case the ATA called upon an independent expert, with intimate knowledge of the ATA's financial position and affairs, who knows the rules of our 501c3 status and successfully acquired it for us, has been ignored in favor of maintaining the status quo when it is no longer appropriate.

Most of us old timers have known about the presidential gun and the expenses for many years. It's no surprise. What some call the "good ol' boys network" was something that evolved over the years. Officials who start down the road to the ATA presidency are asked to do many services for the ATA and that road is long, time consuming and expensive for them. When all these satellite Grands started and grew, ATA representation was expected just like your state BOD members are supposed to attend and work at your state shoots. The average guy may not have been able to afford to do that.

I remember seeing what the president of the ATA in 1947 received for a gift to commemorate his services to the organization. It was a bronze ashtray. I wouldn't have called it "high art" - more a primitive piece. Have the expense thing and the presidential gift gotten out of hand? Probably, especially in times when the coffers don't warrant it but certainly when it is against both our bylaws and the rules of our operating status.

The resistance to follow the rules and to be worthy porters of the funds in a failing organization is the rub. We can't afford to lose our operating status that took a lot of effort to acquire. It is time to pull in our horns and let the recommendations of Mr. Glatz guide our organization through the tough times ahead.

I see what you are saying Hap. I agree. It is people like him that keep beating their heads against the wall to try to make people understand what is wrong is wrong for all. I thought he was the delegate from Ohio and I found out I was wrong. I apologize.

Trapshooter1, no apology necessary for me but I do appreciate you saying it, says your a stand up guy and I like that trait in my fellow sportsmen/women!

Hap

Thanks to Brad Dysinger for bringing this to light, maybe some people will open their eyes and stop thinking the ATA can do no wrong ... No surprises here Kids ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

In 1948, houses sold for 6-8 grand ( or less), gas was 11 cents a gallon, bread was a nickle a loaf and a bronze ashtray was an expensive exclusive luxury. In fact a bronze ashtray is extravagant even by today's standards. In 1948 you could buy a nice gun for $10.00. Is this really "compensation" or an award or gift? There in lies the problem in the noun used, or are all three forbidden? Recall, it depends on what is is. Much ado... Gee, how much would it cost to have a bronze artistic ashtray cast today? Thousands?

Dysinger may/may not be a flawed messenger, but the message he's bringing was going to come out, and rather quickly, anyhow ... too many people knew everything BobGlatz said.

And the Message IS the message.

While Brad is both petulant & shrill, would Dysinger's stock rise if he swallowed whatever is in his craw, go the the Grand, shoot AND talk? Yanno, do something unquestionably unselfish & positive for the good of the SPORT (not ATA).

Of course.

Bob

The worrysome part for me is what doesn't show on this reimbursement report. The report shows approximately $140,000.00 but there is probably more that doesn't show and cannot be proved-shells, fees, camping etc.

The entitlement mindset can spread like fire throughout an organization once someone "justifies" an expense. I believe this is what has soured the shooters on registered targets. The average shooter is paying his/her own way as well as the EC's! Terry

I suspect very few will actually read all of what Mr. Glatz wrote. That's too bad because it is excellent, especially his recommendations. The ATA's management seems to parallel that of the US government and can be summarized as follows: spend your way into prosperity. To ignore Mr. Glatz would be foolish, but will almost certainly happen.

When it comes from the King of the Cardinal Lovers/ATA and Sparta Bashers it just sounds like more whining. Sorry but it does.

He's showing and we're seeing one side of the story.

Because of the cost of the gun, I would think the ATA should give the out going president a 1099 and the person should report it on their personal tax return. If I were a past president, I would be waiting for the IRS to come knocking now that this info is out.

Seems to me the first step in EC and officers expense controls should be rigid per-diems set up for the typical categories in travel expenses per IRS rules along with itemization and justification of each trip. I realize this is just a pimple on the butt of this whole issue. If those involved need to live higher than the budget allows, they pay the difference.

Dick Gries - WI.

Why is the CHC being reimbursed for travel and expenses? Since when are they required to attend specific shoots? Also, since the ATA is now a 501(c),3 corporation aren't the finances public record because the taxpayers are granting the ATA special status and foregoing tax revenue that would otherwise be collected? Just asking. JRM

JRM -

CHC oversee classification at all the satellite tournaments and the Grand American (and probably some others that I'm not aware of).

Scott

I agree with Handlepuller.......I'll reserve judgement until I know more. Too many of the same old negatives seem to be delighted to publically air any ATA dirty laundry (if indeed there is any). I would like more info......preferable from some more positive sources!

As Scott posted above, I believe some of the EC are required by the ATA to attend a certain number of satellite grands etc. Also as posted, some of these guys perform more duties than just being directors of the organization, and reimbursement of applicable travel expenses might not be unreasonable, to an extent. The devil is in the details, and as with many other non-profits many will not stand up to the light shined on them when actually called on by authorities. Payment of compensation to these people is certainly not unreasonable, although the by-laws should be changed to reflect reality.

Except for the conflict w/ the bylaws, I don't think the amount of the President's gun is that big of a deal for the many years of service put in by someone that worked their way through the BOD and then EC, but the extent of those expense accounts is a concern; especially when it sounds like they have not met the accountable plan requirements.

I do think I hear the sound of many amended personal income tax returns being filed for the past few years.

hunter44/handpuller..... What part of this don't you guys understand? Brad Dysinger had absolutely NOTHING to do with this letter and report. It was the sole doing of Bob Glatz, in the interest of trying to get information to the membership that would have most certainly never have made the "news" otherwise. Bob did this out of frustration in trying to get the EC to pay attention to what could lead to losing our tax exempt status and other inadequacies found in the EC's behavior. What possible motive would Bob, or Frank Rively have for exposing this information? You both seem to think Brad was the one that started it, but, I can tell you, first hand, that that is not the truth. I had a copy of all this in my in box within 3 days of its writing, and it did not come from Brad. Both of you seem content to blame Brad rather than see this for what it is. This report was written by a man of unquestionable integrity, and with the professional qualifications necessary to back up his statements. All this did was to re-enforce what Brad, and others, have been saying on here for some time. You both may not like it, and you may not even believe it. Its shooters such as yourselves that have allowed this to happen in the first place. Hide your heads in the sand and keep going as if nothing is going on, it matters not to me. I, personally, can see the elephant in my living room, and I want him OUT. Your stand will accomplish nothing, and thinking Brad Dysinger was behind it is even less productive... Dan Thome (Trap2)

870 I think your second paragraph is great. 16,500 is not all that much for all the work someone does as President and for all the positions he holds prior to becoming president. Many trap guns cost that much too, it's not like the head of the Chevy Chevette club being given a Rolls or something.

Dan, I'm not saying there isn't something going on that needs to be looked into or corrected. I am saying that there is probably a LOT going on, not all of which we're seeing here on this post so I'm not going to jump all overboard about what a bunch of crooks the BOD are, etc. like some people are doing.

All I ever see from Brad Dysinger is just a bunch of negative stuff about the ATA and or Sparta on here and it carries absolutely no merit with me, coming from him. I don't know the guy, but he seems to have an agenda, that's all.

John Houle

Hi Scott, I thought it was the delegates who had that job. I attend a minimum of 2 Sats a year and I do see a CHC member at the classification table but he also happens to be a delegate. All of the other clasifiers are delegates or state association officials and sometimes just regular ata members. Are they required to be at the Grand and Satelites? JRM

John, Should my membership dollars pay for traveling expenses for the EC and a new gun for the President if I don't know about it? When I don't even get to see a report with their expense breakdown?

It's bad business. The finances and expeditures of a "not for profit" organization must be transparent.

I agree that those who spend an exceptional amount of time "working" for the organization should be reimbursed through a predetermined process, but it must be monitored by a responsible person or persons. If it not policed it will be abused.

JRM - I don't know the if CHC members are also delegates or not (I thought not, but could be wrong), I just know that in the programs for the sat grands it usually says "Joe Blow of the CHC will oversee classification". I don't know what other positions Joe Blow holds, but he is a member of the CHC and it's my understanding that a member of the CHC has to be at the sat grands and GA.

Scott

Transparency is good Setterman, no doubt.

Realize that I'm not saying everything is perfect. I'm not a player at all in trapshooting leadership or politics and don't know that much about it. I'm not going to jump on a bandwagon though. Kind of like when I stood up for the Mexicans on the Empire Carpet thread and got crucified!

I do know Neil a little bit, so I do admit that bias. Can anyone tell me of anyone who's put more time into trapshooting? On here, as a delegate and MTA president and then as an ATA EC member, President, etc. Is he expected to do that for free?

I know this guy that bitches up and down that the head of DU makes over $100k per year. What does he think that is, charity?

I think we agree that the system has to be policed somehow, and what is or is not acceptable in reimbursments or gifts must be predetermined before people accept positions and responsibilties. We're on the same page.

READ the report ... all of it.

The transmittal letter, plus Parts I & III have been posted here ... Part II is where the meat, bone & gristle is.

Forget Dysinger. READ.

handlpuller, like wise I know nothing about you. I shot the Minn State many times in the early 80's. I have no idea how many years you've been an ATA member, me I've been a life member since 1976 and an annual member two years before that. Just this summer I shot my 200,000 handicap target. I've shot in 38 states, three proviences and I've known damn near every ATA vice president for the last thirty years. Bruce Reed and I shot toether at the Grand (Vandalia) in the same squad for years, so I to know someone on the EC in this mess.

If you want to defend Winston that's your right, if you want to blame me for the EC being caught with their hands in the cookie jar that's your right also. I owe you nothing, not an explanation, not a sorry, nothing. The only living shooters I owe anything to is the OHIO STATE TRAPSHOOTERS, As of August 1st I will be President of the OSTA and will be looking at this issue in the light of what it means to the OSTA, the trap clubs of Ohio and the Ohio trapshooters themselves..

Your beef with me seems to be that I'm negative, heard that before, but what have I been wrong about? Go back through the years of posts on here and prove me wrong. I didn't make Frank ask Bob to help solve the ATA's fix. I didn't make Bob write his letter, I didn't make all the different concerned shooters make sure I had a copy of the letter. I didn't post "Attention Brad Dysinger" on TS.COM. I didn't cause any of this to happen. Hell I didn't even post the letter, if you go back to my original post all I did was quote Harry Truman, which makes me think of another Truman quote, "If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen, or was it the buck stops here?"

One other thing I don't care about is I don't care if I've missssspelled any words in this or not and I'm not spell checking. Brad

I watched you shoot up here a lot back in the '80s Brad. It was really something to see. You were the first I ever saw shoot with headphones on and that made an impression to a kid and I remember reading you talk about self-hypnosis. I'd still like to know more about that.

Everyone's got his or her opinion. This is a place to express them.

Mine is that with your name and reputation you would be more effective if you didn't come across as an angry ATA basher all the time. I tend to listen to people like that more. Again just an opinion.

Good luck as OSTA President.

If the ATA lost $1.4 million over the past four years as the letter indicates where did it loose the money and what is being done by the EC to stop the losses???

Jerry Hauser

The problem for the ATA is not the amount of the reinbursements or the cost of the gun, but the way they did it. They tried to do it in the dead of night and thought no one would be looking. The IRS will be interested. Neil et al, I hope you told your accountant about the gun and they reported it on your return. Otherwise you may be liable for back taxes, interest, and penalties.

As to people not knowing about the gun for past pres., anyone near Tom Anklin at a shoot was shown his.

Handpuller, thank you, I am angry, too many shooters have stood by and watched trap shooting be stolen, I know too much of the dirt that has and is going on. I've tried to get shooters to listen but too many want to stick their heads in the sand. I knew SPARTA was a mistake because I talk to everyone, plus I lived in the East, Maryland, for 8 years. Illinois, how it happened, what's happened, what is happening has caused the major part of the ATA's problems. I tried to warn the EC then that Illinois was a killer, but they cared less what I had to say.

In 1997 I ran for ATA del in Ohio against Tom Acklin,I lost. I was set to run again in 1998 against him to keep him from becoming ATA Vice President. Unfortunatly, or fortunately, I had a Brain aneurysm rupture in September 97. Needless to say I'm lucky to be alive, so many and I mean so many trap shooters called me, sent cards and told me that they were praying for me that I figured that God must have had a little interest in this Ohio trap shooter for some reason. All I can tell you that after spending 10 days in the hospital, one hell of a headache, and being told that I was to have brain surgey something happened and they sent me home, no operation. No after affects, I'm as normal as ever was. This awakening changed me in that I now call a spade a spade, I'm not affraid of dying, and I believe that there is a GOD.

Their is no doubt what so ever in what I say not being true. I've been around way to long, I know where too many bodies are located. If I set around and allow it to happen to the sport I love I might just as well have died that day in 1997. That's why I do what I do. A few years back a person told me that I was Ezekiel 33, look it up, it's in the old testament. I hope he was right. Brad Dysinger

Everyone mentioning Neil should read everything before they comment. It is stated that Neil was the first President to INSIST on having a 1099 form for his gun. To me, that shows his integrity and understanding of the situation.

Herbert

Brad...

Keep up the pressure on your end. The truth will all come out and we can only hope that our Delegate's do the right thing at the Grand's meeting(s).

As President of the Delaware Trapshooting Assoc., I have been in contact with our Delegate and will be seeking some hard answers for the Delaware shooter's.

I'll be at the CC and give you some other insight/info that I'll have by then, if not before.

Curt

What does integrity have to do with it? It is the an IRS reg. By the way you said that implies that you think the other ATA pres. are cheats and lairs.

Blacklab - I just meant that he started the 1099's. I think all others since then have gotten them also....maybe that just means he understood the tax laws better than some of his predecessors....sorry to offend your senses...H.

I used his name et al, meaning all of them. I was not singling him out. The rest of the mess still has to be addressed.

Change IS coming to the ATA.

Some of it is required: by-laws, documentation, different practices ... Everybody recognizes those are needed/mandated and WILL happen ... regardless of the grousing.

The CULTURAL change is where the entertainment, hurt feelings and harsh words will be.

And ... AGAIN ... if you have NOT read Part 2 "Draft Report to ATA Executive Committee Summary of Recommendations/Observations" you absolutely NEED to do so before opining.

Like the man said: "If you think 'education' is expensive, you haven't priced 'ignorance', lately."

PM me with your e-mail addy if you'd like the .pdf files of the whole thing.

Bob

Before some of you open your mouths you should read the whole report not bits and pieces, as a result you are making inaccurate statements. Mr. Glatz's report is very detailed and needs to be read several times in it's entirety to get the full effect (ie: the fact that a 1099 was given to Winston for the gun, correcting prior errors). Many changes(29) and adjustments have been called for and it isn't going to happen in an instant so develope some patience.

It will take someone of Mr. Glatz's integrity to make this work along with an attitude of let's fix the problems and not play the blame game. Some of your "I told you so" attitudes along with get a rope, a horse and a tree and hang-em is what will rip this association apart. I think that would give some of you great satisfaction.

For you that want this in the public forum, I'm sure the liberal press and anti gun groups will just enjoy the crap out this and see what harm they can do also. Then bring in your liberal gov't. and I sure a fine mess can be made of the whole thing, possibly the disolving of the ATA. I know many of you would like that also.

Allow the changes the chance to work.

By the way how bad are you going to bitch when dues are raised as suggested??

It's still the ATA, we are still shooting trap and the Grand is still next week, can't be all bad. See you in Sparta.

Don

Ezekiel 33

Ezekiel a Watchman

The word of the LORD came to me: "Son of man, speak to your countrymen and say to them: 'When I bring the sword against a land, and the people of the land choose one of their men and make him their watchman, and he sees the sword coming against the land and blows the trumpet to warn the people, then if anyone hears the trumpet but does not take warning and the sword comes and takes his life, his blood will be on his own head. Since he heard the sound of the trumpet but did not take warning, his blood will be on his own head. If he had taken warning, he would have saved himself. But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet to warn the people and the sword comes and takes the life of one of them, that man will be taken away because of his sin, but I will hold the watchman accountable for his blood.'

Thank you Brad Dysinger (a.k.a. Our Watchman)

DuckDog

I would think Mr. Glatz was your watchman.

Don

BigDon,

Mr. Glatz is certainly an instrument through which God's work is being done, but I must disagree with you on Brad. Brad has been "blowing the trumpet to warn the people" for a very long time. I must admit that is hard to think of Brad in Biblical terms, however the passage does seem apropos!

DuckDog

PS: Don, Given the difference in our heights, when we shoot on the same squad I want you to call me Lil' Don. Might be the only time anyone would ever call me little!

Sorry, I read all of what is posted and all the links and still don't get what all the rucus is about. The point is if travel expenses are reimbursible and the EC properly submitted their expenses, politics aside, what is the gripe? Do you all want change enough to ignore the facts? Stating what other organizations do is irrelevant to what this organization does. The ATA is unique. Is this banter supposed to be a catalyst for change? This to me is nothing more than grandstanding for change. Implying this and implying that. Who did what where how why and when? Why weren't all the ATA traditions accommodated for in the original plan for tax exempt status? i.e. The President's Award or travel expense reimbursement. Why do tax exempt if the traditions can not be accommodated? That to me seems like ill advice from 2005. I think the ATA officials should meet to discuss a more austere budget perhaps. If it was up to me, I would suggest the ATA go back to whatever it was before it was a non profit organization, take the losses if necessary and work real hard to turn a profit in hopes of purchasing a permanant home someday soon and do all to keep with established traditions. Failure is not an option.

rpeerless: You do not understand that people will not give the amount of money that is necessary to purchase a "permanant home" without the tax deduction that the 501 (c)3 gives. ATA may lose this if it does not change its policies.

rpeerless ... miscellaneous griping and carping aside ... old issues also aside, 'business form' is a studied, calculated decision, and having a 501(c-3) for an org the size and scope of ATA is a noteworthy accomplishment, and CAN be a vehicle for substantial growth & development.

The 'downside'? Some structural changes are a-foot. They have to be in order to keep the treasured C-3 designation.

In Part 2 (have you read it?), Glatz detailed the exposure ATA has doing things as they are, and the easy & modest changes in both by-laws and procedures that will reduce the exposure - and the exposure he references is not JUST a few more dollars.

The principal change is to make compensation/re-imbursement/required travel/whatever you want to call it, a legitimate (as opposed to 'customary') business expense of ATA that will pass legal/IRS muster.

Essentially, this means having a written, published policy and issuing 1099m as compensation to the travelers. Then THEY can offset their additional compensation on their Schedule C, or Employee Business Expense, and pay taxes where appropriate.

Few (if any) people are calling the EC crooks, but these are issues that EVERY 'traditional' org goes through when business forms change.

The BEST course forward is to embrace change ... but that is never easy.

Would some-to-many resignations help? You betcha.

Bob

Big Don, How about "Lucifer 666" I think that's how the EC refers to me? I take it you don't think I should adopt Ezekiel 33 as my new ts.com name. Brad

I can definitely tell that most of these guys haven't read the reports provided, as I haven't heard any griping about the proposed $10 increase in annual dues and the elimination of state rebates.

The "loss" of $1.4 million over the last 4 years is based on "Net Operating Income from Continuing Operations", which is a different accounting basis than what the ATA currently uses. It assumes that investment income and proceeds from one-time transactions like the Vandalia property sale, lead reclaimation, etc. should only be used to enhance the ATA's endowment and never be used for operating expenses. I agree that this is smart thinking and probably should be followed, but it's somewhat unfair to act like the ATA is "spending money that it doesn't have".

It's not exactly clear what expense reimbursements were added in Mr. Glatz's proposed disclosure statement, so it's difficult to figure out what is going on there. It is more than a bit disturbing that such a large percentage of the ATA's membership revenue is spent on EC travel expenses. Especially if the statement about NSSA and NSCA board members receiving no expenses is accurate. Clearly some oversight is needed there.

There are some inaccurate statements in Mr. Glatz's report regarding the ATA web site and the use of social media... I believe those were both addressed by the ATA before this "audit" occurred.

WPT, I think the "all we get is a hat" came from several delegates that posted here in the past, not EC members. I believe they also acknowledged their privileged parking space at the Grand. I don't remember any EC members stating that they received no reimbursement, but I've only been watching this site for 10 years and many of you go back further than that.

--Dan

Bob, Trap is a pleasure time activity. A game of historical significance with customs and traditions. The treasured c-3 designation contains the strings with which to make the puppet dance and while it may be a short term solution, it might not have a long term place in the preservation of trapshooting. Change is good but Tradition is better at least in my humble opinion.

It looks like tradition is better, if your an EC member.

rpeerless ... nor does 'tradition' and a modern business form have to be mutually exclusive.

Traditional or modern, I don't think many people will disagree that there needs to be more transparency in decision-making, and esp where there can be any perception of self-dealing.

Bob

Bob,

Change is good if you change your underwear everyday and the only honest transparency is a jelly fish. Not an EC member but did not like this thread's tell the world 'supposed disclosure'. Signing off...

It would seem that ATA is not any longer a bunch of good ol boys poking paper hulls in our old Ithacas. And why is everyone on Brad? I have known him since he was trying to get an old model 12 to shoot where he wanted it. He is brash, perhaps, but Dave Berlet said about the same thing and no one jumped on him.I value the aquaintence of both, but they say things differently. I think we better concentrate on what Glatz says. That non-profit rating means a lot and the IRS is not particularly gun friendly these days anyway. And congrats Brad on the Ohio promotion. If things are going that good, I might move back home myself. Mike Kennedy

While everybody is patting themselves on the backs and crying "I told you so." Don't forget that the only thing that is going to fix all of this is to make the effort to promote the sport of trapshooting and to identify the customer base and attract them to us. Paid for targets in the air is our only salvation.

That includes every state and provence in North America. Let's keep the eye on the prize folks and not let this negative aspect of our leadership affect the good aspects of our wonderful pastime.

Brad I just never considered you very "biblical". But maybe Moses would be appropriate, you know leading the people to the promise land. Don't say it but I know where your promise land is.

Now do I have to call you "Mr. President". Good Luck.

Don

The dues should be raised to $35.00 or more annually, it will not effect me in anyway, shape, or form being as I am and have been a Life Member for over 35 years ... That will also sweeten the pot for the EC being as there will be more to pass around being as a lot of you think they need a raise and their being paid is justified when they profess to be volunteers over and over again ... Deception, its part of the crime ...

The ATA isn't going anyplace but a good house cleaning is in order ... Time to get back to the good old days when Honor and Integrity were more than just words ... If Neil Winston knew about all of this and never said anything he is as bad or maybe even worst than the rest of them, think "Deception" ... No surprises here Kids ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

Mapper,

I jump in on Brad's (and the rest of the Cardinal Center guys') posts because pretty much all we ever hear from them is negative stuff about the ATA and Sparta.

Five Grands later we're still hearing about how the people of Ohio were ripped off with the moving of the Grand, etc.

I'm more in favor of supporting the organization we have, while trying to make changes at the same time, instead of just constant bashing.

My $.02

WPT-Will not effect you. Sounds just like something coming from people who don't care. Just maybe they ought to just put a sir charge on the life members too.

Trapshooter1,

A Sir Charge to Life Members would not bother me as long as the same amount is applied to the Annual Members dollar for dollar ... The ATA obviously don't need anymore money if they can pay the volunteers a generous part time wage, but annual memberships have been to cheap for too long ... So far its costed me $1.42 or $2.14 per year plus entry and daily fees to be a Life Member for over 35 years, and I'm not dead yet ... I cannot remember if I paid $50.00 or $75.00 to join back then so that would be the difference ... The problem is we DO CARE which is one of the reasons we commited to being Life Members way back when ... I would gladly pay a Sir Charge just as long as it is paid by everyone including the annual members, EC,and BOD,that would be more than fair in my book ... Hope you feel the same ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

I'm not sure about the "deception" issue, it may or may not be true. To give the benefit of the doubt, step back and be honest about things. Some of the issues Mr. Glatz raised are particular to charities, but did the EC really suddenly change when the ATA changed its' tax status? No way, none of you would.

If the ATA required you to travel to a meeting at the grand or a satellite grand, are you sure that is really different in their minds than if your company required you to attend a meeting at a hotel in Palm Springs with a golf course etc. Don't tell me many of you wouldn't consider that a valid business expense, even if you played golf when you weren't in meetings. What was the primary reason for the trip?

I'm not saying the expenses aren't too much in relation to the size and revenue of the ATA, just that poor judgement and tax issues may be more of a factor than intent to deceive members. Maybe that's not the case, we'll undoubtedly hear more.

I don't think total elimination of EC travel expenses is warranted, but it has to be handled in a business-like manner following all tax laws etc.

I have no problem with it or the raising of the dues.

In general, I agree with 870. I do not think deception, or misfeasance is a 'given' and what I take from the Glatz efforts ... taken as a whole ... is that a bunch of operations & business practices need to be tightened-up.

870 spoke to the difficulty of 'cultural change', and yes, it is hard.

That said, the C-3 is not only valuable in a commercial sense, but also involves fundamental changes for 'best practices' (read: transparency & accountability) which we all need & want to see.

It is time to look forward and not backward, but ATA will only be what we insist it become, and THAT depends on what kind of people we send as delgates.

As long as all of our choices are 'good ol' boys' and log-rollers, we're not going to get much 'vision'.

Kainer needs to be on the board. Also Dysinger - IF he has a Road to Damascus conversion - and quit looking in the rear-view mirror and moaning, groaning and carping.

Glatz shows the way to an exciting future, but we have to implement it.

Bob

Kiner, Dysinger-now that's a great start. Then they can hire back Rively-after he get's canned. This outta be fun-the creation of a "dream team"!!

For those of you wondering about the 1.4 millon in losses being discussed, make sure you realize that is not losses in the bottom-line sense; it is an analytical tool to help you see what is going on with continuing operations and what will likely happen to the bottom line in the future if nothing changes.

For those wondering how the ATA could possibly spend that much money, consider that annual compensation related costs (including taxes etc.) chew up just about the entire amount of dues revenue recognized for a year.

Prices will have to rise as discussed, no way around it.

Just like the real corporate world!

Lose money every year and still pay out big bonuses.

How long can that last?

Terry.

Have you seen the movie of the '46 Grand on another thread? Look around and you can see how things have changed. (I was there and bought my ATA Life Membership.)

If we went back to square one and designed an ATA for the 21st Century the organization would look very different. With all the attention to the current revelations about the organization, now would be the time for responsible, well intended people to make the long overdue changes that would turn the ATA around.

Any volunteers?

I belong to 4 gun clubs and 2 car clubs. The honest ones publish very detailed financials for all members to see -- everything intentionally put out in the open. The others either publish nothing, or publish so little that no one has the foggiest idea of where the money goes, finacial solvency of the club, etc.

If people incurred pre-approved expenses while doing club business, it is appropriate that they be reimbursed. "Reasonable and Necessary" is the guideline used in the business world.

Those 4 gun clubs I belong to? Annual dues range from $50 to $275/year -- a raise of ATA membership from $25 - $35 isn't that big a deal -- put it in perspective, that's equal to 2 boxes of Gun Clubs. Not worth the time it takes to complain about.

Pete

I would be more than happy to pay $50.00 per year for dues IF it would lead to an ATA surplus of $250,000 by the year 2012 as outlined by Bob Glatz.... Dan Thome (Trap2)

Big Heap: " With all the attention to the current revelations about the organization, now would be the time for responsible, well intended people to make the long overdue changes that would turn the ATA around.

Any volunteers? "

::: crickets :::

Mr. Dysinger,

Some random thoughts, guestions, comments:

You state that you knew Sparta was a mistake because you "talk to everyone".. Please elaborate.

You further state that you tried to warn the EC that Illinois was a "killer". Why is Illinois a "killer"?

You told us you will be president of the OSTA as of Auguest 1, 2010 -- and that you will be looking at the issues raised in light of what it means to the OSTA, the trap clubs of Ohio and the Ohio trapshooters themselves... I trust you're not considering seceding from the ATA.

Apparently, some think you are "negative". I do not know you so no judgement there. I will say that you come across that way as far as I am concerned-- Again, no judgement, just my feeling.

Not exactly on topic, but, I sense an undercurrent of feeling by Ohio trapshooters that Ohio is the center of the trapshoting universe.. aren't we all in this together?

Regarding this issue, some feel they have fixed the blame. it now remains to fix the problem. Perhaps you can and should help, but not with cryptic references such as: "I know too much of the dirt that has... and is. .. going on -- and "I know where too many bodies are located". Statements like that are not productive. Go to the Grand, join the fray, talk to people. If you are the man that many on the forum purport you to be, you can contribute .. Don't yell fire, and then run!

MO BILL

Mo Bill,You could not have said it better,Brad should come to Sparta,trapshooting is going to need help after this mess,but Brad will not,because its Ill not Ohio.

Mo Bill, I'll answer the best I can here but if you really want the long version call me. 419-587-3555

No 1. I lived both in Ohio and Maryland. I've shot at most state shoots and sat. grands. I've been around the sport for almost 40 years so I was fortunate when I was younger to know the likes of Frank Little, Earl Tolivor, Vic Reinders, Hugh Driggs, Ralph Taylor, Jimmy Robinson, Betty Ann Foxworthy and to many others to mention but you should get the drift of what I'm saying. I also worked for the Beretta Gun Company for many years and my job was going to shoots and talking with shooters. Any good salesman will tell you that you ain't worth a hill of beans if you don't know your customers. I spent several weeks each year shooting the western chain shoots of Arizonia and Neveda, and then I'd go to Fla. and shoot the winter chain shoots their. By doing this for many years I naturally got to know a lot of shooters. Each summer I'd shoot state shoots, Ohio, Missiori, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Maryland, Pa, Deleware, ect I'd also shoot the Canadian Championship on occassion. So when I say I talked to a lot of shooters you'll just have to believe me.

Now when I lived in Maryland I'd travel over 600 miles from my Eastern Shore Home to attend the Grand American in Vandaila, but just a small portion of the shooters that I knew on the East Coast would go to the grand, when I got to the grand each summer just a small portion of the shooters I knew from the western chain shoots would be at the Grand. Eastern shooters have plenty of local clubs to shoot and their just's not that many western shooters to start with. So the grand was mainly Ohio, Indiana, Pa, Michigan, Kentucky, Illinois shooters. All you have to do is look at the size of state shoots as you radiate away from the Ohio, Pa, Kentcky, Indiana core. Most shooters don't travel far.

A large part of the shooters I talked to didn't like Illinois because of their anti gun stance and if you remember the sparta move was voted down the first time by the bod because of that. All this resentment, back door dealing left a bad taste in a lot of shooters mouths.

No 2. I think I pretty much answered why Illnois is a killer, Distance from main body of shooters, government owned, heat, middle of no where, trap shooting is more than just a nice trap club you need to keep the family entertained, as the crowds get smaller they geometricly advance in that direction. Trap shooters don't have to go to the middle of no where to shoot, the financial drain it would, is, has, caused on the ATA. Obama's economy isn't helping.

No 3. Reagan said trust but verify, trust is also won and lost. Trust is what got the ATA in the spot it is today. Now what was your question?

No 4 Hell I'm probably the most positive person you'd every meet. I'm positive I'm right. That's what makes me a good torunament director. Rules are rules. I don't play favorites no matter if your my friend or the OSTA president, just ask Drew Waller.

No 5 Did Rodeny King shoot trap? The Rodney I know is from Coshocton.

No 6 I've given the Board my advice for twenty years, why would they listen know. All they want to hear is how good a job their doing. I don't think they are. It's just been easier for me to stay home here in Ohio where I feel appreceated.

No 7 Yelling fire is long since past. I would love to see the ATA clean its house, but honestly I'm sure unless something unforseen happens registered shooting as I used to know it is dead. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. The real problem trap shooting has is its members are to old, no 30, 40 year olds. Kids are great but they don't stick at it once dad and grandpa stop paying.

dukcall, you sound more like a coot than a duck to me. Where do you live? Have you ever talked to me in person? Easy to throw stones from miles away. I push Ohio because I'm OSTA director. When I lived in Maryland I pushed Maryland because it was my home state. You don't seem to get it The ATA moving out of OHIO was in my opinion the best thing for us. We now don't get held up for our state shoot, we get daily fees from both Cardinals shoots, we never got a dime of daily fees from the grand, we have money to do things like giving away cars, guns, golf carts, hog roasts, ladies events, ect. Brad

Those of us who have been in the game as long as Brad will generally agree with all he said. If Sparta and Trapshooting can last another 10 years the demographics of the Midwest may ultimately make that move look genius. After all, like Brad said, it's an old man's game and the East coast no longer has the open space needed to encourage shooting activities. From the information I hear, youth programs are alive and well in areas other than the Northeast. In the East, most schools don't want to hear anything about shooting.

Let's just say, the jury will remain out on the Sparta move for quite awhile. I also believe Sparta may have too many roadblocks thrown in front to ever succeed. We can only wish it well. In the meantime, I'll be in Ohio!!

Brad Dysinger

I believe what you say you feel. I don't shoot a lot but I love the sport. I remember shooting with you in the 70's and very early 80's at the Illinois, Missouri, and Indiana state shoots as well as Mexico Mo. and a couple shoots in Las Vegas. You were a well respected and "feared" shooter. What do you think it is going to take to straighten this mess out? Do all these E.C. members need to go? Does the grand need to move or maybe not have a grand? Just have the satellite grand’s all over the country and maybe an Invitational shoot once a year moving around the country to see who the best of the best really is. Are the 27 yard shooters too dominating, do the rules for handicap need changing? I really would like to know what you think.

Trapshooter1 I don't see how the ATA can go on with the current EC so to satisfy me yes they need to resign. The grand probably needs to move around like it did in the early years. The ATA squandered is money and now can't afford it's own home grounds. Sparta is a killer. There are too many satellite grands, that's where a bunch of the EC's travel expense go.

If the targets went back to like we shot at Mexico, Mo 3 hole, 55 yards the 27 yarders would be winning nearly as much. There also has to be mandatory reductions, do away with automatic punches. No punches unless enough shooters. But mandatory reduction and harder targets are aver due.

I also think we need smaller prgrams, no 200 bird singles events. If the ata had any money Added money shoots like the old days would also be good. I don't any of these ideas have a chance of happening with the bunch running the ship ATA though, too bad. Brad

Big Don, You still don't get it do you? All of these years you stood in blind defense of the ATA and there decisions. It kills me to see how scared you are that the ATA might crash and burn. I think you could care less what they do as long as they have a grand for you to go to and a sticker to put in your window. Just think, all of this has come about from two days at looking at the real numbers! I can only wonder what would be discovered if we were to have a forensic accountant go through the books! The BOD would never release the finicial statments in the past........it's no wonder! If you didn't have anything to hide......then why hide! There are people that need to be held accountable for each and every infraction and indescrition that will ultimatly be found. As far as the strong arming of Dr. Rively, if the BOD is in fact found of wrong doing they should punished as any one would be in this organization by first and formost barred for life from this organization and dennied membership to any other group that might haved to be formed due to the detriment they insued to the ATA. For the arrogant actions they have already taken that jeopardizes the chartable status of our organization and grossly ignoring the man that donated his time to set it up for us, is to me grounds enough to remove and barr them from our organization! It is these people who we have intrusted to make decisions that behooved us, the ATA. If there is no way under the bylaws for us the membership to impeach these leaders and cleanse our organization then we do infact need to break ties with the old and form the new! I will grant to all that these are harsh, brash words, but how bad does it have to get before something is done? I stand behind my conviction that this is all contigent upon conviction of said peoples, and would hope that the membership would feel as such. EARNIE ROSS III

Brad

Thanks I appreciate your input.

Dan Woods

You got it Earnie all I give a shit about is the Grand and a sticker. What sticker you are talking about baffles me. One of these days you may even comphrehend what you are talking about and typing. You can lead the get a rope and get horse posse. You sure as hell didn't read and comprehend Glatz's report and it sounds like it went right over your head, surprise. You want to single me out as your point of attack, then have at it. By the way use hemp it doesn't stretch as much.

By the way I don't do anything blindly other than shoot trap certain days. I defend the rules of the ATA as they are the rules in place at this time, I support the ATA as they are currently in charge of the sport I love, loyalty is something you must have a hard time accepting. If I don't meet your standards then tuff shit. Now go spit all over your keyboard some more.

Don

The ramifications of this goes far beyond just what is seen here on the surface. Not only does the ATA stand to lose their tax status, they stand to lose a considerable amount of corporate support as well. Just suppose, as an example, you were the owner of White Flyer Targets. You have not only just cut the ATA a great deal on the targets used at the Grand, but, you may have even been asked, (or gently persuaded) to sponsor an entire event or two. Of course with the ATA, being a tax deductible organization, you would not have a problem in doing this, not only for the benefit of the shooters, but, more importantly as a tax write off for your company, right? Now, all of a sudden, you find out that the ATA has some tax status problems regarding their 501(c)3 status. Are you willing to expose your company to the potential tax problems that could come back to haunt you in the future because of this, or are you going to wait until you know, WITHOUT ANY DOUBT, that the ATA has cleaned up its problems?..... This will go on and on, and the ATA will suffer major setbacks because of the decisions and actions of the EC throughout the years. The only recourse for the ATA is to have a total resignation of the present EC, regardless of who they are. If a member of the EC was not directly part of the cover up, they need to go as well. They are guilty by association and also need to resign. While this may seem harsh, they ALL have to go, not just some of them. It is the only credible way to restore confidence in the ATA, which the ATA severely needs right now. Some positive moves need to be made, and they need to be made now, not next year..... Just my observation... Dan Thome (Trap2)

BIGDON.... Usually I agree with most of what you post on here, and respect your opinion, but, I have to strongly question your continued loyalty and support of the ATA as it is now being run, especially in light of the facts that are now coming to the surface. This blind loyalty and support by shooters that feel as you do are the very reasons the ATA is in this trouble now. Blindly following, without regarding the consequences, when you know full well something is amiss, is not something I can comprehend. I guess this is one of those times I will have to disagree.... Dan Thome (Trap2)

Dan read my posts. If there are problems, which I feel there are, as described by the report then follow the suggestions of Mr. Glatz to fix. I am the last person to give anybody a free ride for their actions but at the same time let's not jump to rash actions without due diligence. It is going to take some time because some changes have to be done according to our by-laws. Some changes can come about instantly with just BOD actions. I also don't think your example is accurate either as any sponsorship or donation of product can still be deductable regardless of who it is made to, as a cost of doing business, dosen't have to be a charity.

This report has only been out for a few days and already people are clamoring for change. Let the delegate system work next week and if it doesn't then I will help lead the charge for a new association and be a charter member.

Everyone should make sure that their delegates knows how they feel and your fellow shooters need to do the same. Pick up the Phone, send Emails. Large numbers work.

Don

In this epoch of excesses and instant gratification I think most members, unless you're on Mars knew that something of this sort was going on, when the expense accts are kept confidential. I wonder if this is left to the delegates, will anything happen? Who's going to be the ones to vote the entire EC out and start all over. Don't tell me that some or all of the delegates didn't know what was going on here. Then, if they take some sort of action, won't they be assholes in the eyes of a good majority of shooters for doing that. I think the "good ole boy" network goes down the ladder a good ways. Everybody has friends who have friends. Am I wrong?

Thanks Brad, All of this,coming out is long overdue.I started shooting registered trap in 71(I'm closing in on 100,000 of every thing) and when ever all the locals from Indiana went to the grand,the old guys would always talk about the director and EC robbing the ATA blind.All of us young guys would sit and listen to their gripes and try and make sence of it all. I can only imagine the stuff that you are privy to and I sure don't blame you for being PO ed about it. My father was born in the southern Ill. area and we went out there to visit all the old folks every summer just before we went back to school. The thing I remember most was that there wasn't a kid under 12 that wore anything but underwear the whole month of Aug. I tried to tell an ATA VP about how hot and sticky it was in southern Ill. in Aug.,but just like all the things that you have said to the ATA through the years,it fell on already decided ears.It gets hot in Ohio also,but one year I got to the grand and had to buy a sweatshirt. Thanks again Patrick Swartz

Partygirl, Maybe a petition of the membership is in order. There is no way a delegate can get a true picture of the feelings of members with in his/her area unless they ask a lot of questions at multiple clubs on multiple dates. Will they bother to pursue it? Don't know.

Maybe Kiner's survey was finished too early. Need to add a few questions and send it out to all members?

I can see it now: "Were your aware the President gets a free $16,500 gun at the end of his term? Did you know the EC had over $100,000 in expenses for 2009?" yada, yada, yada.