OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OTMost Recent Posts First
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| Posted By | Posted Date/Time |
| skeeljc | 13-Jul-10 - 12:52 PM ET |
| Smithy47 | 13-Jul-10 - 01:25 PM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 13-Jul-10 - 07:30 PM ET |
| skeeljc | 13-Jul-10 - 08:52 PM ET |
| bridgetoofar | 13-Jul-10 - 09:20 PM ET |
| jmac_cope | 13-Jul-10 - 10:04 PM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 14-Jul-10 - 01:29 AM ET |
| skeeljc | 14-Jul-10 - 10:03 AM ET |
| hmb | 14-Jul-10 - 10:35 AM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 14-Jul-10 - 05:13 PM ET |
| hmb | 14-Jul-10 - 05:31 PM ET |
| JPSemper | 14-Jul-10 - 08:39 PM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 15-Jul-10 - 07:30 PM ET |
| darr | 15-Jul-10 - 08:29 PM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 16-Jul-10 - 11:22 AM ET |
| skeeljc | 22-Jul-10 - 10:10 PM ET |
| skeeljc | 23-Jul-10 - 06:00 PM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 23-Jul-10 - 10:27 PM ET |
| skeeljc | 24-Jul-10 - 12:24 AM ET |
| BFD | 24-Jul-10 - 12:43 PM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 24-Jul-10 - 01:18 PM ET |
| skeeljc | 24-Jul-10 - 02:14 PM ET |
| Hokie Bird | 26-Jul-10 - 11:16 AM ET |
| skeeljc | 26-Jul-10 - 03:37 PM ET |
| skeeljc | 26-Jul-10 - 03:44 PM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 26-Jul-10 - 10:33 PM ET |
| Hokie Bird | 27-Jul-10 - 01:53 PM ET |
| JPSemper | 27-Jul-10 - 08:02 PM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 27-Jul-10 - 09:37 PM ET |
| Hokie Bird | 27-Jul-10 - 10:25 PM ET |
| skeeljc | 27-Jul-10 - 10:41 PM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 28-Jul-10 - 01:46 PM ET |
| skeeljc | 28-Jul-10 - 04:56 PM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 28-Jul-10 - 09:20 PM ET |
| STOS | 29-Jul-10 - 11:43 AM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 29-Jul-10 - 12:28 PM ET |
| Savage99Stan | 29-Jul-10 - 12:46 PM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 29-Jul-10 - 12:58 PM ET |
| hmb | 29-Jul-10 - 01:55 PM ET |
| claybrdr | 29-Jul-10 - 08:10 PM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 30-Jul-10 - 03:14 AM ET |
| Shooting Coach | 31-Jul-10 - 03:02 AM ET |
| Shooting Coach | 31-Jul-10 - 03:26 AM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 31-Jul-10 - 06:49 PM ET |
| Shooting Coach | 01-Aug-10 - 12:27 AM ET |
| skeeljc | 01-Aug-10 - 11:07 AM ET |
| sky buster | 01-Aug-10 - 09:03 PM ET |
| Shooting Coach | 02-Aug-10 - 12:57 AM ET |
| skeeljc | 03-Aug-10 - 11:32 PM ET |
| Shooting Coach | 04-Aug-10 - 10:32 AM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 05-Aug-10 - 09:23 PM ET |
| Shooting Coach | 05-Aug-10 - 11:22 PM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 06-Aug-10 - 12:28 PM ET |
| skeeljc | 06-Aug-10 - 03:45 PM ET |
| skeeljc | 06-Aug-10 - 03:46 PM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 06-Aug-10 - 09:09 PM ET |
| Shooting Coach | 06-Aug-10 - 09:32 PM ET |
| sliverbulletexpress | 06-Aug-10 - 09:54 PM ET |
| skeeljc | 06-Aug-10 - 10:42 PM ET |
| sliverbulletexpress | 06-Aug-10 - 11:53 PM ET |
| Shooting Coach | 07-Aug-10 - 12:41 AM ET |
| skeeljc | 07-Aug-10 - 08:20 AM ET |
| Quack Shot | 07-Aug-10 - 11:44 AM ET |
| mallardfilmore | 07-Aug-10 - 11:54 AM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 07-Aug-10 - 12:55 PM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 07-Aug-10 - 03:54 PM ET |
| skeeljc | 07-Aug-10 - 09:41 PM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 09-Aug-10 - 02:31 PM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 09-Aug-10 - 03:17 PM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 09-Aug-10 - 03:44 PM ET |
| skeeljc | 09-Aug-10 - 05:16 PM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 09-Aug-10 - 07:24 PM ET |
| Shooting Coach | 10-Aug-10 - 01:06 AM ET |
| Quack Shot | 10-Aug-10 - 10:05 AM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 10-Aug-10 - 01:22 PM ET |
| Quack Shot | 11-Aug-10 - 03:27 AM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 11-Aug-10 - 04:22 PM ET |
| skeeljc | 11-Aug-10 - 06:51 PM ET |
| JTEA | 12-Aug-10 - 09:53 AM ET |
| Quack Shot | 12-Aug-10 - 07:15 PM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 12-Aug-10 - 10:13 PM ET |
| Shooting Coach | 13-Aug-10 - 12:39 AM ET |
| Quack Shot | 13-Aug-10 - 01:26 AM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 13-Aug-10 - 01:06 PM ET |
| Shooting Coach | 13-Aug-10 - 01:20 PM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 15-Aug-10 - 04:57 PM ET |
| Quack Shot | 15-Aug-10 - 07:09 PM ET |
| Shooting Coach | 16-Aug-10 - 12:00 AM ET |
| skeeljc | 16-Aug-10 - 09:45 AM ET |
| Jim Miller | 16-Aug-10 - 09:48 AM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 16-Aug-10 - 05:46 PM ET |
| skeeljc | 16-Aug-10 - 06:02 PM ET |
| sliverbulletexpress | 16-Aug-10 - 06:16 PM ET |
| skeeljc | 19-Aug-10 - 04:17 PM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 19-Aug-10 - 07:45 PM ET |
| sliverbulletexpress | 19-Aug-10 - 08:48 PM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 20-Aug-10 - 03:04 AM ET |
| skeeljc | 01-Sep-10 - 06:44 PM ET |
| buzz-gun | 02-Sep-10 - 12:07 AM ET |
| buzz-gun | 02-Sep-10 - 10:27 PM ET |
| W.R.Buchanan | 04-Sep-10 - 07:10 PM ET |
| buzz-gun | 04-Sep-10 - 11:43 PM ET |
This thread started out with me looking to acquire some .40 S&W brass. I have found what I need for now.
There is a lot of good information on reloading the .40 S&W cartridge in this thread. Thanks to everyone for their contribution.
Jim Skeel
I have plenty. Contact me via email to work out the details. Bob
Jim: Just a word of warning on loading the .40S&W. It is a good policy to fully resize the cases by running them completely thru either the Redding push thru die (way too expensive for what you get) or like we do, use a Lee taper crimping die which has a carbide sizing ring in it. We take the crimping sleeve parts out of the die and push the cases all the way thru the die body.(Lee makes a kit to do this now, and I suggested it to them) you will have to make a pusher that fits into the shell holder of the ram of your press, but you're a machinist so it won't be a problem. Mine took 20 minutes to make out of 12L14.
What this does for you is it gets rid of the bulge at the bottom of the case caused by shooting them in unsupported chambers like Glocks have. I don't know if XD's do this too but it is a good cnance that some of the O/F brass you get will have beeen fired in a Glock. .40S&W is the only cartridge I know of that really suffers from this problem. The bulge is really visable after reloading and sizing with a normal sizing die. In fact I can pick the glock rounds out of "Remanufactured Ammo" sold at the gun shows quite easily.
If the bulge is allowed to go thru 2-3 reloadings the case gets weak and there is the possibility of failure which in the case of the .40S&W happens at 35,000 psi. Unfortunately the .40S&W barrel is no bigger on the OD than the 9MM barrel, but it has got a bigger hole in the end, so obviously it is weaker.
I have seen both of the Glocks which were blown up in .40S&W (I only know of 2)and both were as a result of case failure and semi hot reloads. This is the origin of the reason for the complete sizing fix.
I use 5.0 gr of W231 with Rainier Copperplated 165 gr lead bullets for about 950FPS and a pleasant load to shoot IDPA with.
Glocks also have large chambers. Mine has a chamber that is .005 larger than any of the other .40S&W pistols I have had. This large chamber is so the gun will function reliability with virtually any ammo. Obviously if you don't fully size the case, the base will have at least a .005, likely more like.010, bulge at the bottom after it is sized in a normal die. Obviously as the case is repeatedly fired the brass flows forward from that area and gets thinner. This is what causes the problem
Hope some of this blather helps
Randy
Randy,
I appreciate the information on resizing. I have heard about chambers that do not fully support the case. I will have a look at my XDm. It has a loaded chamber indicator flag so maybe the chamber fully encloses the case.
So how does your reloading sequence go? When do you deprime? Do you just do the full length size before putting the cases on your Dillon?
Jim Skeel
You can also use a Lee "U" die. It's designed for this purpose, I have one on a Dillon 550 and it works just fine. I also load down a 165 plated bullet, but use HP38. The cases that come out of a Glock will be pretty obvious, as is the rectangular primer strike.
Jim,
I have a bunch of factory loaded 40 SW that I could be talked out of if you are interested.
John
Jim: I do a bunch of cases at once, like 500-600 at a time. They go to a bucket with Lemishine in it first to clean any dirt and most of the tarnish off. Works real well in 10 minutes.
Then I have a C&H Pistol Champ 4 station press, and I use a Lee Deprime die in one station and then the taper crimp die right next to it, so you pick a case put it the first station and drop the primer, then transfer to the second station and size. Then directly to the tumbler.
I load in a C&H Auto Champ Progressive which I haven't totally worked the bugs out of yet. I still have the normal size die with prime punch just in case I missed one. Otherwise it works the same as any other progressive. 4 stations size/deprime, expand/prime/charge, seat bullet and taper crimp.
The bugs I need to work out are the case feed reliability,It sucks. The case expander doesn't bell the cases enough for my tastes which makes the bullets hard to start, and it spills a few granules of powder every time you pull the handle because the expander plug is not fully in the case mouth when the charge is dropped. The errant powder ends up in the slide assembly and creates problems. I'm pretty sure I know why it is doing this I just have to call Dave at C&H and ask him what the accepted fix is.
Also if I can't work out the bugs in that press I will sell it on Ebay and change it's name to Dillon. Their machinery is really hard to beat.
I loaded 199 rounds last night (lost one primer) it took me 1 hour. I spent probably 20 minutes clearing jambs, so by all rights it should have been 300 rnds. Plus if I really had the press operation down and had multiple primer tubes preloaded it would be more like 400/hr.
My Bro in law who just started reloading recently has a Dillion 550B, and he can do 400 per hour no sweat. Just because the machine is so well thought out and functions correctly.
Randy
Randy,
Thanks for the tip on bulged cases. I ordered a Lee taper crimp die.
My Springfield XDm-40 has renewed my interest in pidtol shooting. Back when I was shooting a lot of IPSC I had a Dillon 550. I will buy another one as soon as I tire of loading on a single stage. My Dillon always worked well and their service is truely no BS.
Jim Skeel
Randy,
You are using the wrong die to resize your brass. The taper crimp die is used after the bullet has been seated in the shell. It is the final step in the reloading process. Get a resizing die with the carbide ring to resize your brass. HMB
HMB: Appreciate the concern,,, however the purpose of using the taper crimp die with the carbide ring is to remove the bulge at the bottom of the case, not to full length resize the cartridge. This action sizes the case down to about .423/.422 on the OD. You CANNOT push a case all the way thru a regular sizing die, it just won't go because the case head won't compress that far. The regular sizing die takes the case mouth to about .418 OD The case head is larger.
I am still using a normal carbide sizing die at the first station in the progressive. Then the expander plug opens the case mouth to about .399 ID and flares the mouth. Then after the bullet is seated, the taper crimp die closes the case OD to .418/.419 to finish the loaded cartridge. The bullet is very secure at this point, and will not get pushed into the case. Overall length with the 165 Gr bullet is 1.125-1.135 don't go too much shorter that this or there can be pressure problems.
This cartridge, more so than alot of others, needs close attention to details. It is a 35,000 PSI cartridge just like a 9MM but the barrels that house this cartridge are slightly weaker than a 9MM barrel for the same gun (explained above). For comparison the .45ACP runs at @ 21,000 PSI.
Not to say it is a dangerous cartridge to load, you just need to be aware of the possible problems, and take steps to avoid them. Kind of like you do with any reloading. IE: do your homework, and pay attention. Every article I have read about reloading the .40S&W has had MANY cautions stated about avoiding the problems, also all of the reloading manuals caution against using reloaded cartridges in guns/chambers that do not fully support the round. This is the polite way of saying GLOCKS.
I have shot several thousand rounds of reloads thru my G35 with no problems, and I have researched this cartridge extensively, and I pay attention to what I am doing to the near point of obsession. I am also a machinist with a background in production machining. All reloading is, is production machining with a different product coming out the end. This is part of the attraction for me.
This paying attention idea goes for my Shotgun reloads too. I just started doing them earlier this year, and after 1000+ I figure I've got that figured out, but now that I am using a 366 instead of a 266, I once again have to pay close attention to what I'm doing so as not to double charge a case or do something stupid like dump powder and/or shot everywhere. Shotgun shells are alot more forgiving than Rifle or Pistol cartridges @ 10,000 PSI.
I'm pretty into this hobby ?
Randy
Randy,
Why is there a bulge at the bottom of the case? Is it because the shell is not supported by the chamber in that area? I do not like to reload cases that have bulges. They have been weakened.
I don't understand why you can't get the neck expanded, simple adjustment, just lower the expanding rod a little. Also why are you spilling powder, is the case filled to the top? HMB
You might want to be on the look out on e-bay for a used Case Pro. I use one for all of my 40 cal and 38 Super cases.
John Semprini
HMB: The reason the cases have bulges at the bottom is because Glock chambers are made larger than other brands of guns. This is because Glocks are designed to feed just about any kind of ammo that will fit the gun, with the accent on reliability under adverse conditions. Also the area right at the back of the chamber is relieved to fit into the Glock breach face. Most guns are not designed this way. The case after it is completely resized is not weakened any significant amount, it becomes weakened when loaded several times without resizing the bulged area, the brass flows forward from that area and the case becomes weaker from the reduction in wall thickness. Also if the bulge is never resized eventually the brass flows enough so that the case fails anyway. These cases shouldn't get reloaded any more than 4-5 times under any circumstances. I figure one trimming is all they are good for. Plus there are plenty of them laying on the floor at most ranges. I picked up 320 last Sunday after our IDPA shoot and they were all new. I only shot 60-70 myself and they were all new too.
As far as the neck expanding problem I called C&H yesterday and it turns out I have the expander plug for the 10mm case. The plug is about .100 shorter than the one for the .40S&W case. The correct part will allow me to adjust the expander die down and get the desired flare to hold the bullet in place before it is seated. I couldn't do this before because the expander plug was too far up inside the die body.
Also it should be inside the case mouth before the powder is dropped, which will solve the powder spilling all over the shell plates.
I was also fortunate to also get a carousel style case feeder magazine. Now I will only have to reload it every 100 rounds, which will speed up the process greatly. This machine should do 400 rounds an hour without me breaking a sweat. Which reminds me I need 4 more primer tubes so I can load everything at once, and not have to stop every hundred rounds to reload primers too.
John: What exactly is a "Case-Pro"? Is it somekind of dedicated case sizing tool? Do you have a picture or a website I can go look at.
We'll see how all this works out and I'll keep you all posted on my progress.
Randy
The glock chambers are the culprits.The 40 SW case is a straight case.The glocks have oversized chambers and when you go to size them the case holder prevents a full resize.Iload quite a few of these and there is a Co. in San Diego that has a machine that they invented for the 40 somewhat like what was discussed earlier.It pushes the case all the way through a sizing die.They are able to do about 10,000 peices an hour.If your close to San Diego it is a great deal.They only charge a penny a peice.9mm shot out of a Glock have the same problem.They also have a machine to fix that,but being a tapered case the process is different.They roll the bulge out of them.If you are close to San Diego it is the easiest and cheapest way.If you have to ship the brass then this whole story is in vain.I don't know if there are other processors in other parts of the country but I bet there is.The Co. in San Diego is A&M precision
Darr
One last thing I haven't mentioned before. is the device I pick up all of my brass with. At 60 the act of picking up breass by either bending over or crawling around on my knees was NOT going to work out. I found this doodad in an ad in Handloader Magazine and I have to tell you all, it is just too cool!!! Once you see it work you'll be sold, best $50 I've spent in a long time. They pickup shotgun shells too.
Last Sunday I picked up about 500 pistol cartridge cases in about 20 minutes, this thing is definately worth the price of admission.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HATFE9OhCxc Video of the device in action.
http://www.thenutwizard.com/catalog.html the website to buy it..
Randy
Randy,
I received my Lee taper crimp die and their push through kit. Works well except now I need a RCBS Rock Chucker to use it in. Some cases are a little too much for my RCBS Junior.
Thanks for all the help,
Jim Skeel
Thanks to everyone for the education on loading the .40 S&W. Very helpfull information.
Bob, (Smithy47) the Winchester brass you sold to me looks very good.
Eric C. thanks for the range pick up brass - great price!
Jim Skeel
Jim: something you can do to make the cases push thru easier, is use some of that Hornaday spray on case lube, even though you have a carbide die. It makes it much easier.
Have you noticed how some of them are harder than others to push thru? I have got no answer for that issue, other than obviously they are .001 or so bigger than others.
Like I said in my replies to your posts, 5.0gr of W231 works well with a 165 gr copperplated lead bullet. The bullets have been running about $42/500 at the gun shows lately. Prices on components are finally going down a little.
Good luck
Randy
Randy,
Thanks for the tip on the spray lube. I did buy a used RCBS RC II on eBay. We will see how it works.
I have loaded some 180 grain Laser Cast FP bullets with 5.0 grains of Hodgdon Universal Clays. The accuracy is good and the recoil is mild. I have not shot enough of them to see if they lead the barrel. They should be running around 925 fps.
I have almost 2 pounds of W231 so I will be loading it too. It is probably 20 years old!
Jim Skeel
I have been reloading 40S&W for years. I use Dillon carbide dies in a Dillon RL550 press and have no issues. I am also shooting a Sig 229.
Shoot well :>)
Bryan
Jim: you shouldn't have any issues with leading at that speed, but still keep an eye on it. The reason for the copperplated bullets is there is no leading period. I use Ranier 165grs from Midway or the same basic bullet from an outfit at our local gun show here in Ventura CA. I don't have a box left to tell you the name.
Anyway, I saw you got a rockchucker. It's a good basic tool and everyone should have one. I've had mine since 78.
I use my C&H press to do the break down of the cases because I can decap in one station and then push the case thru the sizing die on the station right next to the first one, so it's bang, bang, case into the tumbler.
Another tip. I use some stuff called "lemishine" to clean cases. It is dishwasher soap ! available in the diswasher soap aisle at your local supermarket. A couple of teaspoons in a gallon of water takes all of the crap off cases in short order. If you just want to get the dirt off the outsides then 10 minutes is all you need, if you want to get the soot out of the inside too then overnite gets most of it out. If you really want to get anal you can take them out of the juice and use a Qtip to remove all of the soot.
Then size them and then into the tumbler, and you have cases that look virtually new.. Just depends how far you want to go. I go all the way sometimes, sometimes I just do the lemishine and then size and load.
The cool thing about the lemishine is that it is a good idea to clean the cases before you run them thru your dies so silica doesn't scratch the carbide rings. And yes silica will scratch carbide. The lemishine does that and removes tarnish too.
Let me know how all this is working for you.
Randy
Randy
I usually run my brass through the Lyman Turbo Tumbler first before I resize and de-prime. That removes the dirt and assures me that there is not a piece of tumbler media in the flash hole.
Jim Skeel
Randy, thanks for the education on reloading the 40 S&W. I will soon begin reloading that caliber and the brass I have is from a Glock. In the posts the Lee taper die was mentioned. Is that all that is required or is there another part that needs to be purchased. On Lee's website I only saw the taper die but I may not have looked for the correct part. Thanks again for the education!!
Frank
Frank,
You need the taper crimp die (90862) and the Bulge Buster Kit (90487). The Bulge Buster Kit includes a push through punch that fits in the press ram in place of the shell holder, an extension sleeve that screws in the top of the die and a plastic catcher that sits on the extension sleeve to catch the cases as they come out the top of the die.
Some bulged cases take a bit of force. My RCBS Reloader Junior was not up to the task so I purchased a RCBS Rock Chucker. You need to size the cases in a carbide sizing die before you push them through the Lee taper crimp die.
Jim Skeel
I have been testing some reloads and have found a nice cast bullet load:
5.0 grains of Hodgdon Universal Clays 180 grain Laser Cast FP bullet
This load groups great and is pleasant to shoot.
Jim Skeel
Now, whats wrong with that? Looks to me, like you pretty much got this figured out.
Just make sure to inspect your cases thouroughly every time you reload them.
You are not loading a hot load so they should last well, but keep an eye on them anyway.
Good Luck
Randy
Hello Jim, Thanks for the Lee part numbers. That made finding them much easier. However on Lee's website I downloaded the instructions for the Bulge Buster Kit just to see how it works and I saw the following statement: "Do not use the Bulge buster Kit to reload for the 40 S&W Glock or similar guns with chambers that do not fully support the cartridge due to the intrusion of the feed ramp". Seems to me that would be the main reason for using the kit. Could you or anyone else shed some light on that statement. Again thanks for the part numbers and thanks to Randy for the warnings.
Frank
You asked about the Case Pro. Here's the website:
http://casepro100.com/index.html
Sorry for the delay, I'm out of the country and haven't been reading TS.com
John Semprini
Frank; liability is the word. this is a disclaimer. I suggested to Lee to Mfg this kit last December for .40S&W. Nobody said anything about the other calibers. The bulge busting doesn't need to be done on .45 ACP cases because it is a low pressure cartridge. 9mm's have significantly stronger case heads as they are a smaller case even though they operate at the same pressure as the .40S&W. Redding only sells a bulge buster kit for the .40S&W.So what Lee is doing is beyond me. Maybe they are just trying to increase sales with unsupported fear mongering, wouldn't be the first time they tried this tactic. IE: their fatory crimp die saving your life, when any seating die will do the same task.
This statement of not fully supporting the case head is a problem, and needs some clarification, and I have to say that "I thought I knew what I was talking about here," However after looking at my guns I can see no clear evidence to support the not fully supported case head in the guns I have direct access to.
First & second pic: loaded round in Glock chamber, note case head below extractor groove is not in chamber, and is "unsupported". When the slide closes on the barrel There is a tenon going into a mortise which encloses the breach, and partially encloses the extractor groove maybe 75% of the way around . The feed ramp being what is unsupported. But this is true of any semi auto pistol.
3rd and 4th pic. Same cartridge in a Para 1911 style barrel. Note case sticks out of the chamber just as much as the Glock, note how the barrel in the slide shows about the same amount of extractor groove not supported when in battery.IE; the feed ramp.
The case head at this point is in the chamber. IE the thin part of the case doesn't start until further up the case and the solid part is partially in the chamber, so the case head is for all intents supported.
Rimless rifle cartridges usually are in the barrel totally except where the extractor has to grab the groove. So I guess they could be said to be fully supported, however most auto pistols don't work this way, as they have to be able to feed and extract the rounds much more rapidly, and as a result, the chambers have to be looser in the interest of rapid and reliable feeding.
If someone that actually knows what the differences here they are more than welcome to chime in. But when I say that I "mean" really knows, not think they knows.
Point is both of these systems have just about the same amount of case head exposed.
I always figured that the "unsupported" chamber issue was referring to the loose chambers on Glocks. My G35 chamber is .428, but my CZ 40P was .423, so I figured that was the reason. I know that is the reason the cses bulge because it doesn't take a gun engineer to realize a chamber that is .008 bigger than the unfired case is going to make it bulge when fired.
However my Paras chamber is .430! which is .010 bigger than a Winchester factory loaded cartridge, and .002 bigger than the Glock. So I think somebody is full of shit here. And I am referring to gunwriters who constantly refer to the unsupported chambers on certain guns but will not say which guns they are talking about. Everybody assumes Glocks. I'm begining to wonder. I am also referring to loading manuals saying this, and now add Lee Precision to the mix.
.010 bigger than the cartridge seems a little generous so I'm sticking to the theory that the unsupported term is refering to the loose chamber on these guns.
Liek I said if somebody know exactly what the unsupported case head is refering to please stand up.
I'll call RCBS or one of them that knows tomarrow and get the strait story and update this thread for all to see.
Randy
Randy, Thanks again for a very thorough discussion thread. YOur thoughts and picture are exactly what I was thinking. I could not see a difference in how various caliber pistols that I have were chambering the cartridge. Knowing that the 40 S&W pressures were high, I was giving them the benefit of the doubt. I would be curious what the folks at RCBS ahve to say. Thanks again for the reply and the photos. Frank
W.R.B. I tend to think that the case "bulge" is from oversized chambers. Here is a once fired Winchester case that was fired in a Glock (they have very distinct firing pin marks). The Glock cases measure .432" to .433" in diameter near the base. This is how far it will enter the chamber on my XDm.
Jim Skeel
Jim: First, How do you take such damn good pics? I definately need lessons!
Would you measure your XD's chamber and tell us what the ID is? Calipers is fine.
I talked to RCBS, Hornaday and Redding today about this subject and this is what I came up with.
According to Hornaday & Redding there is 2 types of case bulging.
The First, is caused by an oversized chamber. As I said above, my chambers are .428 and .430. My CZ40P was .425 which I think is more where it should be. Cases fired in a large chamber and then sized in a regular full length sizing die will show a bulge at the bottom of the case. Obviously because the bulge is .430 and the sized portion is .420 ish. So there is a .005 high bulge all around the case head. Apparently 9mm and .45ACP also have this problem but to a lesser degree, and Lee's promoting the other calibers is not unwarranted as Redding is looking at making push thru dies for these calibers too.
The second type of bulge is completely different and came as a complete surprise to me as I have never heard of this.
Apparently, Early Glocks had a relief cut in the chamber similar to a Keyway. It was about .005-.010 deep and extended forward from the feed ramp approx .150-.200. Nobody I talked to knew why it was put there. But all 3 tool outfits knew about the problem with the early guns.
This relief makes a very obvious bulge when the round is fired, and looks like an arrowhead. It is the bad kind of bulge most are referring to as the problem with glocks. My newer G35 doesn't have this relief cut.
Since all of our newer guns don't have this problem, we can go back to the loose chamber bulge that we are already dealing with by using the push thru die system.
Also it should be noted that the problems that arise with this caliber are mostly related to Hot Rod loads. There is no reason to hotrod this round. A 165-180 gr bullet 900fps will make just about as big an impression on anyone as one at 1000 fps. And targets and tin cans won't know the difference anyway.
I am going to call Storm Lake today and see what their chamber dimensions are, and if they are tight I might even buy one of their barrels for my 35. The Para will have to live with its barrel, but it is much more accurate than the glock anyway. The Glock needs help for accuracy, beyond the chamber size.
I hope this dispells some of the rumors and mysteries on this subject. I feel much more confident about discussing the technicalities of this topic now that I have had professional guidance.
Randy
Randy,
My Nikon Coolpix has a macro mode which lets it take very close pics.
The chamber on my XDm measures .428".
That is a lot of good information you dug up.
Here is a question. The fired cases from my XDm mic .427". They mic .423" to .424" near the base after I size them with a RCBS carbide die. Do I need to do anything with the .004" bulge?
Jim Skeel
Jim: it's totally up to you. I don't see .004 as being that much of a problem. Still I think using the push thru die is a good idea. Also, keep an eye on the cases for splitting and any other major flaw. Just like you'd do for any rifle case.
What I do is decap and then use the push thru die to remove the bulge and choke the case down to .422-.423.
Then I tumble the cases.
Then I run the empties thru my progressive with the regular size die in the first station with the decap pin in place in case I missed one. You have to use the sizing die to choke the cases down so they can be expanded by the next station to hold the bullets properly.
I pick up alot of range brass, and have to completely process it before I will reload any of it, so that's why I do what I do.
You started this thread looking for brass. I don't know if you have noticed yet, but .40S&W is a pretty popular round and you can pick up a bunch of brass at your local range. I went over and picked 200+ cases out of the brass bucket after my dismal performance on the trap range last Sunday. I picked up 300+ after my last IDPA shoot 2 weeks ago. I usually take my "AMMO-WIZARD" with me, which makes picking the brass off the ground totally painless. try Ammowizard.com Best $50 I've spent on reloading yet.
Anyway you can accumulate a bunch in a hurry. Then you process them as a large group like 500+ at a time (kind of like that production machining we are all so fond of) and that way you end up with large batches of clean brass that all are ready to be reloaded with out much in the way of thought (kind of mindless busy work you don't have to think about). I sort by case brand also, as most of the ones I pick up are Winchester, but there are plenty of other brands too. I just like to keep the same brands together. I even put them in factory boxes when done.
I think we've all learned a bunch from this thread, and certainly enough to safely deal with this cartridge. Plus if you can load this one right you can do any of them right. .40S&W is one of if not the hardest to get right. But now you see it ain't all that hard.
Randy
Here is a Case Pro with a P/W Auto-Drive hooked up.Can size up 1500 per hour.
OK: that case pro machine looks like it works the same way a linier thread rolling machine. Linier Thread Rolling machines have two opposing plates with various thread pitch grooves on them that are moved laterally and when a blank bolt is placed in between them the motion rolls the bolt and squishes the thread form into it. Kind of like rolling a piece of Dough between your hands to form a round strip of dough like used for a pretzel. It is a one shot trip thru the machine for any bolt. Knurling can also be done on these machines and you could size cases on one too.
This Case Pro sizing machine only has flat plates which just squish the case down to a preset diameter with each revolution of the crank. Very cool.
Randy
Early in the thread someone commented that the 40 was the only one that had a problem with unsupported heads...wrong. I cracked the stock and blew a magazine out the bottom with some second hand brass...and found several more fired ones that were bulged. The gun was a Smith 39 which had a rather large unsupported area next to the feed ramp. I believe the problem was more of a "telescoping" one than anything else but it only happened with the brass that was headstamped the same. I took the balance of the brass back to the dealer where I got it and he had his boy pull the rest out of the bulk rack.
I saved the empty and show it to people in my reloading groups.
BTW, I loaded a lot of 40 for my XD and never had one bulge.
OK now on to barrels. I called Storm Lake today and discussed chamber dimensions with one of their tech guys. He was very knowledgable and answered all of my questions in plain english.
It seems that most ALL current guns chambered for .40S&W have a slight flare at the back of the chamber to facilitate feed relibility. Glocks, XD's Sigs, to name a few that he rattled off.
Obviously the amount of the flare dictates how much bulge is going to be transfered to the spent case. Some are looser than others .
I'll be measuring my 2 guns today and I will get back to you on the actual size of the chamber at various places from back to front.
The Storm Lake barrels are .4274 at the breach end and .4243 at the front so the chamber tapers slightly so the case will extract easier. This is also the SAAMI Spec for this round.
So even though the case is not fully in contact with the chamber walls, the term 'not fully supported" is a little excessive. This is because at the moment of firing the case immediately expands .002-.004 on a side to come in contact with the chamber walls at which point it becomes "fully supported"!
Otherwise every gun would blow up
Only if there is a notch in the chamber or a big open space would the term "not fully supported" be an accurate term to describe this issue.
Still, he pointed out that repeated firing of the same case in the same chamber without completely resizing the case will cause the brass to flow from the case head forward and eventually cause case failure near the base of the case.
Hopefully you won't be reloading these cases more than a few times each.
More icing for the cake as it grows bigger the more we learn.
Randy
Randy,
Why would the gun blow up?
I shoot a 10mm Colt Delta Elite and have had no problem. A 10mm is just an adult 40 S&W so wonder why the difference. My loads are a lot hotter than any 40....
They blow with case head separation, caused by over worked cases.+ A delayed blowback action can't contain a 35,000 psi case head separation like a bolt action rifle can. So there in lies the problem. better to not push the cases of teh loads.
Anyway this is a very very rare occurance with todays guns.(I have hard of exactly 2 Glocks that failed) Now that doesn't mean you shouldn't follow prudent reloading proceedures and guidelines.
Guys, the hottest loads I will ever shoot in ANY gun I own is a factory load. There is just no need to go hotter for anything.
I have guns that have never even had a factory load fired in them, My Ruger Bisley .44 mag is one. Nothing but lower velocity handloads and cast bullets in that one. Believe me a 300 gr lead bullet at 1100-1200 fps will make a significant impresion on anything you shoot with it, and the gun can shoot them forever and not wear out. Full house loads won't do much more and they will shake the gun loose in 1000-1500 rounds.
The hottest loads are just not necessary for anything but impressing your buddies.
Handloading for the .40S&W is more about economy and volume than higher performance. Load more shoot more!
Randy
Pic of unsupported chamber in 40 Glock factory barrel.
Comparisons of different barrels showing unsupported areas of chambers.
The best (easiest) way to avoid a case failure in the 40 is to avoid using the 180 gr bullet, and not using fast burning powders.
The 165 gr pill will work well. If factory speeds and above are required, VV 3N37 will push a 165 gr bullet at a surprising speed with minimum muzzle flash. Pressures are not excessive.
As a commercial loader, I load 40 "target fodder" using a moderate 165 gr load with Hodgdon's HS-6. This powder also excels in the 9X19 and 10mm for non-redline loads. I will not use fast burning powders in High Performance Auto pistol rounds.
For the very restricted amount of 40 cal defensive ammo I load, I use new Starline brass. A recoil spring that is not fatigued is cardinal in the Glock. The Glock is made to be relentlessly reliable with quality ammo. It was not in the blueprints to make it reloading friendly. I use the JR case sizer made by Magma Engineering on ALL fired brass.
As a Glock Armorer, I am forbidden from recommending aftermarket barrels and recoil spring assemblies, but I have heard the Storm Lake barrel and a Wolff Extra Power recoil spring, along with a stainless steel guide rod, are popular items among Glock 40 owners. :^)
coach: Thanks for this clarification: this is the best example/explanation of the unsupported chamber issue I've seen yet.
What vintage is the Glock barrel in the picture?
The pic below shows a cartridge in the chamber of my 2006 G35. It shows slightly less unsupported area than your G17. The descriptions I was given of the unsupported areas by the reloading tool guys made me think of something slightly different than what you show, but now I see exctly what is going on. It is a scallop where the radius of the feed ramp intersects the radius of the chamber. the deeper the feed ramp is cut the more unsupported area you have.
The second pic shows the beginning of the case head on the inside of the case. This is where the thin part of the case wall starts. It is about .060 inside of the unsupported area. Luckily this part of the case is somewhat supported. Anything to the outside of this line is all solid brass and won't blow out.
However there is another consideration here. It is where the other portion of the 'unsupported chamber" comes in. The flare on the mouth of the chamber to facilitate feeding.
My chamber measurements are as follows: (Disregard all previous measurements on this thread)
just inside the chamber .030 from the rear. .436,,, and tapers evenly to .426 at the front of the chamber.
This is where we are geting the more proment bulge from. The factory ammo I have is .420-1 to start top to bottom, and after using just the normal sizing die the case gets choked back down to .421-2 for the full length of what can be sized in a blind die. But the base stays untouched. The result is the proment bulge we have been trying to figure out. I think this question is finally answered completely
The roll sizers all eliminate this totally and the push thru sizers reduce it to almost nothing. So both of these along with moderate loads seem to be the answer for safely loading this cartridge.
My undestanding of this cartridge grows with each post here from guys like coach. Thanks for the input. I feel like I can now discuss this topic and be sure I'm not spreading BS.
Randy
The barrel in the pic is from a Gen II G23. When loading for myself, I prefer Starline, W-W or R-P brass in the 40.
So which powders do you like and what bullet weight do you prefer?
Jim Skeel
The answer to Glock "Ka-Booms" in .40 and .45's is to use an after market barrel with a fully supported chamber. The Shooting Coach's photo's do a great job of showing where the case is unsupported. Just follow the feed ramp up to the case and you can see how the case is not surrounded at the six o'clock position. Almost every law enforcement Glock that has blown up has been with factory ammunition. Again, as the Coach said, do not use a recoil spring lighter the the factory spring. This can cause the slide to open early and result in a blown gun. When this occurs, the top of the chamber usually gets blown upwards, The magazine will get blown out the bottom.Do not reload lead bullets as they can increase pressure.
Dear Jim
I use the 165 gr bullet exclusively. A cheap hardball bullet excels for practice fodder, such as Precision Delta's offering.
I like Sierra's 165 gr offering for a premier defensive load.
I use Hodgdon's HS-6 for loading range fodder in the 40.
For heavy lifting, that is maximum velocities without excessive pressures, I use VV 3N37. This powder, although horrendously expensive, will generate TREMENDOUS power in the 40 (and 9X19). All generations of Glock factory barrels will digest factory published loads with VIHTAVUORI powders, when using recommended new brass.
MAKE SURE your gun is up to snuff. Fresh factory recoil spring, clean barrel, free of fouling (specifically lead fouling) and NEW brass, preferably Starline. Premium primers, and I use the Lee factory crimp die. Bullet setback is a cardinal sin in the 40. THIS ROUND MUST HAVE A FIRM CRIMP.
I was tasked by a local PD to develop a restricted LE only 40 cal load that will defeat windshields and car bodies, and still give fight-stopping penetration and expansion. I used VV powder, and the load worked out so well I now depend on a Glock 22 for personal defensive chores.
As a Certified Glock Professional, I cannot recommend other than factory parts and ammo. As a licensed commercial ammo manufacturer, I can say that I load 40 cal factory defensive and practice ammo with the above mentioned components.
I received my used RCBS Rock Chucker today. It makes removing the bulge with the LEE taper crimp die an easy task.
I have been processing some once fired Winchester brass. Ocasionally I encounter a hull that is so bulged that my RCBS carbide sizer shears off a little ring of brass near the base. It requires a lot of force even with the Rock Chucker to do this. I have been discarding these cases when I find them.
Jim Skeel
For low volume, get the Redding sizer. It is made for this. For high volume, look up the Magma Engineering JR case sizer. This one is the deal, and is not that pricey for those loading the 40 in volume.
Peeling brass off the hull is not something that a responsible loader would do.
Jim: Occasionally I find one that is a bit large too. I just trash 'em, and move on. Also spraying them with some kind of lube before you run them thru the die helps too. I use that Hornaday spray on Case lube. Even with the carbide die, It helps.
Coach: the problem with the Redding dies(they make 2 different ones for .40S&W) is they are just way to expensive for what you get. I bought both and sent both back because, after looking at the machining quality, overall finish, and dimensions, I was not only not impressed, I was offended. they looked like the type of stuff that came off multi-spindle Screw Machines back in the 60's
The first one I got was $35 from Cabelas it turned out to be the non carbide die. The threads were rough, and this die was worth maybe $10 on a good day. The second one was the Carbide die and it was $65! It was exactly like the $35 one except it had a carbide sizing ring in it. worth $15. The only thing these dies have going for them over the Lee dies is they are plated.
The Lee Taper Crimp die has a carbide ring in it and sizes to .421-2 which is .001-2 above factory. The machine work is excellent, and the lone die is about $10. It is NOT plated so you have to take care of it or it will rust.
The $65 Redding die set has one other thing that I did like. The case pusher has a spring loaded collar on it so you can just set the case in it and yank the handle and not worry about pinching your fingers. good idea. Does not come with the $35 set, only the $65 set.
I have been looking at building a dedicated machine for sizing and depriming these cases. The Magma sizing press is kind of cool, and I just happen to have one of those exact same presses in my shop.It wouldn't be much of a problem to make a die holder plate and a spud to push the cases thru the upside mounted Lee TC die! But what I really like, is the feed set up, and with a Dillon Case feeder hooked up to it you could do some serious numbers in a short time.
The Case Pro 100 is very cool too. But unless you are making alot of ammo that one is kind of expensive. The Magma press is not as bad price wise, but for me at this time doing maybe 300 a month the Lee die is the way to go.
Randy
The main advantage of the Redding is that it is made for sizing the case head and rim. It will not pinch or shear brass off the case.
The Magma does a better job, and is quick, with several feed tubes.
I am investigating setting up a Dillon case feeder on the Magma. A few alterations will be in order.
Coach: don't they have a case feed set up like that on the Magma Website? Maybe I'm cornfusing it with the Case-pro website. Any way it shouldn't be too hard to set up. the only issue I see is matching the tube from the feeder up to the tube on the Magma.
What is the diameter of a finished case coming out of the Magma sizer?
When I started out, I got a Regular Sizing die from Lee. I drilled out the threads on the top of the die that hold the decapping pins collet and then put it into the press. I found out on the very first case that the full Length die ws squeezing the case down to .418 and the case head would not go thru the die as it is .422 from the factories. Compressing that extra .004 was not going to happen, so I got the taper crimp die and it sizes to .422.
Both of the Redding dies I had, made the cases .422, and the Lee die does the same thing. So That's the way I went. The Redding carbide dies are no different in the way they are made than the Lee Dies. The non carbide Redding die is built the same as anyother strait wall case sizng die.
Your Magma is made out of a common Arbor Press available from many different tool sales outfits. It is capable of delivering 1 ton of force. Mine has the optional 2 foot long "force multiplier" option installed. Either one is MUCH more powerful than any reloading press, and thus will require much less human force to operate. Finding a "Kick Press" (foot operated manual punch press) could make this even easier.
The main difference is that the Magma pushes the case thru rim first. I'd bet, and you could confirm, that the Magma sizing die has a pretty generous lead in taper which would make the sizing operation go much easier.
All of this has given me an Idea* I can turn down my pusher so it will fit inside the case and push thru upside down on the rockchucker press which will allow me to have my fingers out of the way.
It's good to discuss this stuff. Oh,,, the last thing I made on this press were gas checks with one of those "Free Checks" tools. I was trying to get the guy (local to me)to let me run parts for him, nothing came of it, but he has a cool little product that works pretty well.
Randy
I have the LEE taper crimp die and their Bulge Buster kit. The pusher they provided will fit inside the .40 S&W case but it is not long enough as it flares out the case mouth when you try to size them base first.
I may make a longer pusher so I can just set them on the pusher. Are there any pros/cons to sizeing the case base first?
Jim Skeel
Does anyone know where to get Hornady 165 grain XTP bullets?
Jim Skeel
Jim: no there are no problems sizing the case base first. That's the way the Magma works. The case won't know the difference.
Also I am going to make another pusher tonight and put a decapping pin in the middle. That way when you start to size the case the primer will get pushed out first and then the case will get pushed thru the die. Should work just fine.
Then the only thing left is to make a little feeder mechinism, and we're in business.
Randy
Hull comes out of Magma .4205" at case head, .4195" rim. Factory R-P hull, .420" at case head, .419" rim.
As you said, pretty effortless.
The Dillon tube is larger (.725") than the Magma tubes (.640"). A little Yankee ingenuity (machining) can fix this.
A Dillon case feeder on the Magma will make life easier for a long-in-the-tooth Commercial Loader. :^)
I like the 40 round, but it is a PITA for a commercial loader. I like its performance in the small bore Glock frame. 165 grain pill at 1250+ fps out of G-22 with factory barrel and spring, no "Glock Bulge" with new Starline brass. (WOW)
I am using VV 3N37, but you must find the load.
More later.
Dear Jim,
Graf & Son or Midway should have the bullets you seek.
You guys have made a bigger deal out of 40 cases shot out of Glocks than it needs to be. EGW gun works makes a carbide sizing die that has most of the entry chamfer taken out and is a little tighter. It cures the problem by allowing the carbide sizer to work lower down on the case where the bulge is, link to it above. Take one of these dies, put it in your Dillon 550 or whatever you have in the sizing-decaping position, adjust it down until it almost touches the shell plate, and load just like any other caliber. Simple as that. I do lube the cases even with carbide dies because it makes it so easy, Hornaday one shot.
There was a time way back when the Glock 40 was new that people had problems and you had to come up with your own solutions. I took a Dillon carbide 40 die and ground it down until the chamfer was about gone and just enough left to hold the carbide insert in. I'm still using it years later and have never kaboomed a 40 case. I don't shoot Glocks though.
The 40 does need respect though. It is a high pressure cartridge. Clays powder, a lead bullet, and a Glock leaves very very little room for error. I've seen a couple of kabooms with that combo.
silverbulletexpress, I thought lead bullets in a Glock were a NO-NO.
Does anyone have any pressure data comparing cast bullets to jacketed bullets?
Jim Skeel
Yes they are a no no but there are plenty of people who will tell you they use them without problems, just like everyone else until...KABOOOOOM.
Now with an aftermarket barrel made for lead you can.
It's just the stock barrel it doesn't have real rifling, a little lead build up, fast powder, high pressure, a pistol that can fire out of battery, and you have what it takes for a KABOOOOOM
The only thing about altering size dies to remove the taper, or buying a die without sufficient taper for a progressive press is that they often will not work properly in them.
No big deal about the 40 hull. I buy brass from LE ranges, and some of the guns used have tired recoil springs and generous chambers. As a Glock Armorer, I have seen some guns badly needing service (recoil springs and cleaning/removing excessive lube).
The ammo I load MUST chamber in all standard arms, including Glocks with tightly chambered, Aftermarket barrels. Pre sizing makes this a sure thing. Not loading fired brass to red line pressure also makes safe ammo a certainty. I use the 165 gr pill and a slow burning powder (HS-6).
As has been wisely said above, the 40 is not fond of fast burning powder. NO WAY will I use fast burning powder in any High Performance Auto Pistol cartridge. I am talking about 9X19, 40, and the 10mm Auto. If I were to load 38 Super or 357 Sig Target Fodder, they would be fueled by HS-6 as well.
Also, loading about 10,000+ rounds per week, I need brass that flows through the 1050, and dies made for the high speed runs I have to do to make any money on this.
Shooting Coach, can you identify the maker of the arbor press that Magma Engineering uses to power their Case Master Jr?
Jim Skeel
What I don't see mentioned here might be the biggest contributor to the problem. The issue of "Internal Case" dimensions. If a hull has less "meat" in the web near the case head, it might be more susceptible to failures like this. The original issue, as far as I know, was with certain early lots of Federal brass. The cases have apparently been redesigned, if my unscientific examination of old vs new has any validity. What seems to be the issue is that you have a partially unsupported case that has a thin web near the case head and that case expands more than would be considered normal in that area. When the case is resized and loaded for another time, it could cause a case failure if the same spot were to be realigned with the unsupported area of the chamber. The would have been weakened during the first firing and could fail if the conditions were right. I don't think that ANY form of resizing would fully resolve the issue, since the case has already been weakened. All the extra resizing does, is allow you to chamber the hull a bit more easily when it is reloaded. If I see a hull that has the typical "Glock" bulge, it gets discarded. It is not only the Glocks that have the issues, but it was one of the first ones to experience it. The Federal ammunition in question was supposedly distributed to some law enforcement agencies as well and they experienced some difficulties with it.
I still use the factory barrels in my Glocks for carry purposes and for practice with some factory ammunition. I use an aftermarket barrel for the bulk of my Glock shooting, since they have more chamber support than the factory barrel does. My other handguns that fire similar cartridges already have sufficient chamber support.
I also do NOT reload to maximum pressures. I load lighter rounds for target and some practice. It's easier on the gun AND the shooter. I reserve the Factory stuff for the full house loads when needed. If I need more power, I just use a bigger gun.
I am very careful when I inspect cases before reloading. If sorting "Range" brass or brass that has been fired in other guns, I will do a quick cleaning and then a through inspection before ANY other operation has been performed, such as decapping and resizing. I then decap, resize, trim, and finish cleaning the cases that pass the inspection, giving them another once over during the process. I just give them a more thorough inspection, but I do inspect EVERY case or hull I reload, at least once.
Never reload a .40 with any bullet weight over 180 grains. Never reload a .40 cartridge case more than once
Glock factory barrels do indeed have "real rifling" and it's called polygonal rifling which is made by hammer forging.
Most of the major ammo makers have loads that will defeat windshields when used under the FBI protocols for ammo testing. In reality, it's iffy at best if it'll really happen. If you need to get through glass, you shouldn't have left your rifle in the car.
Jim Skeel: The arbor press is made in China and is available from Enco, Rutland, and virtually every outfit that sells machine shop tools, and probably someone local to you. If you have a shop supplier close to you, I'd ask them, and I'm sure they could get you one. . Usually $29.95, might be a few bucks more now.
Make a plate to hold your Lee die upside down and drill and tap two holes in the press base to loacate it under the ram. If you design the plate well you can use it to mount your feed mechinism too. Just leave enough slack in the holes so you have some adjustment on all of the features.
You'll have to drill and ream the rack/ram for the pusher, also a set screw thru to hold the pusher wouldn't be a bad idea.
There is usually a collar on the left side that holds the pinion in the press. To reposition the ram for a more favorable lever position you just pull the pinion out until it clears the rack, and reinsert to your liking. You can pull the rack out the top like this too.
You might want to consider a return spring for the ram also. It would make production go much faster, and reduce fatigue. I would also set up some kind of a chute or tube that would direct the the product to a bucket, because without one you'll be chasing cases everywhere.
A foot pedal linkage is another idea for when your arm gets tired.
I could go on and on, but we might as well just design a dedicated automated machine. Which brings me to this one, which at $30K loads ammo at warp speed.
http://www.advengsys.com/ammunition.aspx
Randy
Top single: I just started reloading shotguns shells about 8 months ago. A friend (the one that got me into trap shooting) recently gave me a deal on a DL366 I couldn't pass up, I was actually looking seriously at a Dillion 900.
The Spolars are real nice. I understand the mentality of the people that make them as I own a machine shop too. If I was shooting 1000 rnds a week I'd definately be looking seroiously at one. That probably ain't gonna happen, as I can't stand to do anything that much.
When it comes to buying machinery (something I do know about) You have to buy the kinds of machines that service the majority of the work you do for the least amount of money. What that means, is you farm out the stuff that is outside your capibilities, and the machines you buy service the vast 95%+ of your needs. A DL 366 for $150 in almost new condition fills that bill just fine.
Randy
Randy, when you are ready for a little more production from your Hornady 366 here are some high capacity reservoirs that I make (and sell). The shot reservoir holds a full bag of shot and they are strong enough to be removed and inverted to change bushings without emptying.
Jim Skeel
Jim: I am aware of them, and a damn nice looking product they are too.
I will keep that option in mind as I progress up the trapshooting food chain and require more ammo in less time. I see the value in having them.
Randy-
Well what do you know? I found this in my picked up brass from my IDPA shoot yesterday. It was pretty tarnished so it had been laying in the dirt for a while. I don't think it was shot yeaterday.
This is the first real world example of a blown .40S&W case I have witnessed for myself.
This is a .40 S&W Federal Case, which was definately fired from something that didn't have a Fully Supported Chamber!
BUT,
It was NOT fired by a Glock.
And it was not a reload.
This apprears to me to be the problem with the Federal Brand cases as somebody mentioned above. The solid portion of the case head on this case ends at the Extractor Groove! Not .05-.07 above the groove like every other brand of brass.
I have in my possesion @ 3000+ .40S&W cases, and you can bet your ass that all of the ones that say FC on the end will be visiting the trash permanently!
This was a real eye opener for me, and a perfect example to keep on the loading bench. This was also not caused by a reloading error. THIS WAS FACTORY.
You're gonna love these pics!
I suspect the gun had a problems as well.
I'm sure these pictures will go along way towards furthering the understanding of this topic.
Randy
I addition to the above post, I will be cutting some different brands of .40S&W cases apart lengthways to show the differences in case head strength.
I'll post pics of these cases when done.
Randy
Is there any difference in brass marked "FC" vs "FEDERAL"? Most of my Federal brass is marked "FEDERAL".
Jim Skeel
Jim: I'd do a measurement of the depth of the case and see how it compares with the extractor groove for a reference. I don't know if there is any difference betweeen the 2 headstamps. I doubt they are the same. Plus that, this one cartridge might just be an anomaly.
I do know, that the base of the cavity on the shell that blew was below the extractor groove. That area is not supported on ANY GUN!
I'll make a little jig to cut these shells apart tonite and we'll see exactly whats going on.
I did this with the various iterations of the AA Shotshell hulls and it shows everything.
I'd bet I have brass from 5-6 different makers. I'll cut one or two of each apart. Just a mattter of digging thru the bags and pulling several of each out for bifurcation.
Randy
Dear Randy
Federal originally loaded the 40 in Super Balloon cases. These hulls, a left over from Black Powder Cartridge days, are VERY THIN at the case head. I have always thought that a high pressure load in a low pressure case was a recipe for disaster. Many 40 case failures have been experienced with Federal brass.
For those not familiar with metallic cartridge case design, the case in the center is the Super Balloon.
Remington, Winchester, and especially Starline use "Bombproof" Solid Head cases in the 40 cal. I use these for heavier loads.
My "Target Fodder" commercial loads use Federal and other brands, but are no where near factory pressure levels.
For my personal 40 cal target fodder, I only use Remington, Winchester, or Starline brass.
For my personal 35,000 PSI defense ammo, I use new Starline, period.
W.R.Buchanan
Shooting coaches picture nails the issue I described in my previous post. I don't have any more of the "balloon head" FC Hulls, since I crush and discard them when I find them. I do NOT want them back in the food chain. It's the configuration of the case head and web that has a bearing on the case strength. Use the wrong case in a gun with little chamber support and load it hot, and you will have the potential for disaster. As I stated, NO AMOUNT of resizing or case prep will fix this problem. You need to look for these cases and not load them. Even some of the "FC" and possibly "Federal" marked cases may have an intermediate design where the case is deeper and the web thinner than others. I've seen some that looked to be of that nature and have destroyed and discarded them. I don't take any chances when it comes to reloading. If there is any question about a cartridge case or hull, it does NOT get loaded. I use the new design Federals ONLY for light target loads, and fire them in guns with a well supported chamber. That is ONLY after a thorough inspection and sorting to weed out any that are questionable.
I once made a guage that I used to sort these shells. It was a shouldered pin that was dround to the length of the primer flash hole of a "good" case and was used by putting the case on top of an aluminum rod and "sounding" the flash hole depth with the pin from the primer pocket down. Any that came up short were suspect. Unfortunately, that didn't take into account the "web" configuration either, but did cull out some hulls of the "balloon head" style. I don't remember the ballon head cases being as pronounced as the ones in Coaches pictures, but I don't have any more left to compare to.
Quack & Coach:
Coach: the pics tell the story completely!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks
Quack: I am already sorting my cases and any FC's will be culled. The vast majority of cases I have are Winchester, but I have already found some "FC's". I can make said depth gauge and test questionable cases, but I think just measuring with a drop indicator will do the trick. Much faster too.
I have never heard the term "Ballon Head" before. This design is IDIOTIC to carry forward into a rimless design! It was probably done to conserve brass. I can see it working in a revolver cartridge where the cartridge is totally burried in the chamber, but NO rimless case application would be safe, as the extractor groove has to be exposed to extract the case at some place on the rim.
Carrying this design over to a hi pressure round with the inherant chamber issues of pistols, sounds more like "cost cutting" than "engineering stupidity."
BIG QUESTION!--- Do either of you guys or anybody else, know the approximate vintage of these ballon head cases. And were they only marked FC and made by Federal, or are there other brands too?
It is hard to believe that these inferior cases would be still being manufactured today. I can see if they made a mistake and then corrected it, but if this product is still be produced, then somebody's got a problem.
Research continues, and the pertanent information on this cartridge grows daily.
Pic of inexpensive drop indicator stand, very useful on the reloading bench. These can be found on Ebay in the "machine shop tools section", I've had this one for 25 years and I think I gave somebody $5 for it minus the indicator which in this case is worth another $5!
Randy
The .40 S&W cartridge debuted January 17, 1990 along with the new Smith & Wesson Model 4006 pistol. I believe the affected Federal Cartridges were made from this timeframe until late 1996. Most of the later Federal stuff seems OK and has a more robust case head and web. See the links below for more details and some history. They don't have it nailed down as well as Coach's pictures, but it gives you an idea of the issue and the timeframe.
I made a tapered aluminum rod to detect the Federal cases with thin webs as well. It was marked for the proper depth and had a taper at the bottom end to match the newer style federal cases. It was used as a go/no go type of guage. Crude, but it seemed to work. If the rod went all the way to the mark, the case was suspect. If the mark on the rod was outside the case when the rod was inserted, it was good to go. In order to make that, you would need to sort out some good vs bad federal cases and fashion the tool accordingly. While I don't specifically remember having any of the "Ballon Head" cases in .40 S&W, I definitely did have two distinct case designs. One with a thin web and deeper case. The other is the newer design with a more robust case head and web. Any ballon head cases would have been discarded a long time ago, although I still have a few older .45 Long Colt cases that are of the balloon head design. they are generally set aside as collector's items. I believe there were two different manufacturing processes involved as well. A form of extrusion seemed to be the better of the two, with improved annealing processes. Read it somewhere fifteen years ago, but can't put my finger on it right away.
Looking at my .357 Sig chambered firearms, they seem to have the support issue pretty well resolved. Even my Glock in that chambering isn't as bad as the .40, but I still use an aftermarket barrel for that one also.
More good information in the search for truth on this topic.
2 very good articles to read in the above post.
Randy
Here are some .40 S&W cases I sectioned.
The Federal case is head stamped "FEDERAL". It appears to have the thinnest web at the base.
Jim Skeel
Great thread. I have just recently returned to reloading for my handguns. Have now started steel plate shooting. Anyway, I was using my chronograph to check some loads and I have the 9mm and .45 acp running fine. I thought the chrono was off when I took it out to test my 40 S&W's as I was getting speeds at ~ 280 > 450 fps.? Dropped in an old factory load and there was the 850 fps. I use a Dillon 550 and Unique powder. I have a small digital scale and took many samples, not sure what happened. Will try a few more test samples when I get back to loading 40's. Does the larger flake Unique powder lend to a less even flow? I have more variation in the speeds than I am used to with the shot-shells I reload. Seems to be the lowest pressure powder on the charts I have.
RE: balloon hulls / thanks for great examples. I have Sigs and a Smith & Wesson in .40. I tried checking casings with my finished gauge before reloading them. The "strong" brass still slips in, the weak ones are larger. That's one way to check. After reading this thread I also made a depth gauge to slip inside the case with a mark for the Federals. With the thicker cases it doesn't go as deep. It's hard nylon with a taper at the end and small enough to slip right in. Is this a good idea or method for a quick check? Also, I only reload "used" brass for target at lower speeds.
Also, I checked my brass with my go / no-go gauge after the initial resizing (station #1) on the Dillon (carbide die) and it appears to completely re-size to the bottom of the brass. They run through the gun OK. Isn't this adequate?
Thanks, JT
skeeljc
Good comparisons. You can see that the Federal case is thinner in the "web" area towards the outside of the case and is a little deeper and more square in the inside cavity. Looking at the Speer case, you can see it is more robust and the inside cavity is "higher" from the case head, giving more material in the "unsupported" area just above the extractor groove. The Winchester case is also a bit more robust where it counts. This may vary from lot to lot, so I would be careful about making general statements. The older Federal cases I tossed were even thinner in the head and outer web areas than the one in the picture. It was immediately evident that I would not want to load and fire these cases with anything other than a much reduced load. Not wanting to get them mixed up and have trouble later, they were crushed and discarded. Cases with more material above the extractor groove would likely be stronger than those with thinner walls and deeper cavities.
I just received my new Storm Lake barrel today and I immendiately chambered a factory round to see how much case is left unsupported.
The unsupported area at the feed ramp is approximately 3/4 of that in the Glock Factory Barrel. However that amount is about .030 instead of .040, so there isn't THAT MUCH difference. However the chamber is definately tighter, and the cartridge wobbles much less in the new barrel as compared to the stock one..
I have found it is not possible to completely eliminate this area of non support due to the length of the cartridge. In Other words you can set the feed ramp back any farther than it is in these barrels, due to the length of the cartridge.
The barrel also has Square Land rifling instead of the semicircular lands which some mistakenly call Polygonal rifling. Real polygonal rifling looks like a circle with flats, or a pentagon or hexagon with large fillets. H&K PS9's had true Polygonal rifling, which at the time 30 years ago I thought was a new idea. I was then shown a Holland & Holland Double rifle in .500 NE made in 1906 with you guessed it Polygonal rifling exactly like the H&K. Not much really new in guns. just better machining and bullets.
I got this barrel from Brownells and it was $118 at the racers price $160 full pop. I probably would not have bought it at full pop. I have to say though, the machining is excellent!!! It dropped right in perfectly.
I'll update when I shoot this gun this weekend, after my new sights come tomarrow.
Randy
As a Glock Armorer, I am forbidden from recommending aftermarket parts, but "I have heard" Storm Lake barrels are the way to go, especially for cast bullets.
I have two Storm Lake barrels and they are top notch. They might not be the MOST accurate barrel, but they seem to beat the factory barrels hands down when it comes to chamber support and they just about dropped right in with very little fitting. Although ANY barrel in the glocks will shoot better than I can. :) My Model 19 does Cast bullets quite well, but Not with the factory barrel. My 23 does quite well, with similar results like the 19. There are many good choices for aftermarket barrels.
Quack: Linotype for cast bullets for auto loaders. That way the bullets don't get distorted as much when they hit the feed ramp. This is according to Mike Venturio of Handloader mag. 22-24 BNH. I personally don't see the need to cast for this caliber, as I shoot too many of them and can't make them fast enough. I mainly do several for 45-70, several for.44's and several for .308 sized rounds like 30-30, and 30-06's. I'd need to do a minimum of 500 for the .40 per sitting to make it worth while and it would take 6-8 hours to process that many bullets. Just not worth it.
I have been using .401 Rainier copper plated lead bullets from Midway @ $57/500 and now my local gun show has the same bullets for $42/500 as of the last show. I'm not seeing any significant reduction in Primer prices of any kind, pistol rifle or shotgun. Lead products and powder seem to be drifting down a little.
Prices on handgun ammo at Walmart has been steadily going up. 100 rnd Win .40 S&W valuepack is now $29.97 up from $28.97 one month ago. Still no significant availability, but still "substantially !!!" cheaper than any place else.
But,,, Walmart do have a buttload of shotgun shells right now. Federal 12ga 10 box flats at $46.xx
Dove season in 2 weeks.
Randy
Try Precision Delta for jacketed bullets. They are generally cheaper than the plated varieties. They offer a dandy 165 gr.
The 40 is ALMOST more trouble than it is worth to commercially load, when buying brass off LE ranges, but the round is so efficient and versatile, I still load it.
I carry the 40 for personal protection over any other caliber I own. If two 165 gr HP rounds at 1250+ fps won't stop an attacker, it is not the fault of the gun.
I am not surprised to see so much interest in this supremely balanced cartridge.
Kudos to Winchester for bringing it to the marketplace. "^)
Here's a pic of my G35 with the new Strom Lake Barrel and Dawson Precision Sights.
Guys , I have to tell you these sights are definately the shit! The front is a Fiberoptic interchangeable Red and Dayglow Lime. The rear is an adjustable square notch with windage and elevation adj. The Fiberoptic front picks up so quick & easy it's almost criminal.
The machine work and attention to detail on these sights is way up there with anything I've ever seen. Well past the Bomars of days gone by. This is micro machining at it's best. To give you an idea how good this stuff is, The are 8 scallops in the underside of the adjustment screws used as detents, then there is a .030 spring loaded ball to engage the detents the ball is captured so it doesn't fly out when you install the sight. There are NO BURRS OR MACHINE MARKS OF ANY KIND ON THESE OR ANY OF THE PARTS of these sights! WOW! There are serrations on the back surface of the rear sight to show a Matt finish, they are cut so fine I had to look at them under a 10 power glass! They are perfect.
I see stuff like this and wish I could do this good a work.
As a machine shop owner I don't really impress that easily with machine work, this stuff Impressed me!
Randy
W.R.Buchanan
Nice rig! I've been wanting to buy a set of Dawson Precision sights, but I am waiting for my Trijicon Night sights to dim out. They are almost 15 years old and should soon need to be refreshed. I was thinking about a set of the Dawsons to install in the interim. I might have to do it sooner. I have a bunch of Glocks, so it's not too hard to justify. Like you, I was impressed with the quality. My friend has a set he installed on his, and it's been on my short list ever since.
I have about 700 pounds of linotype left. It's VERY high antimony content, so I usually cut it with lead or wheel weights and a little tin. It casts quite hard and bullet deformation isn't much trouble. Considering I originally bought 2500 pounds back in the 70's, it took awhile to get down to 700 pounds. I don't cast much anymore either. I have a lot of lead and tin, plus wheel weights galore. My biggest problem is finding the time to cast a few thousand at a time. The plated bullets work just fine for me for practice. I have tons of cast, plated, and jacketed bullets I bought years ago. When there is a deal, I still buy more.
Dear Randy
SHAME ON YOU for putting up a pic of your fabulous G-35! I have been strong, but am sorely tempted to put on of these in the stable.
Has anyone had success with 155 grain HP bullets? 165's are still hard to come by.
Jim Skeel
"SHAME ON YOU for putting up a pic of your fabulous G-35! I have been strong, but am sorely tempted to put on of these in the stable. "
I have one for sale that has less than 1000 rounds through it. The stock barrel has not had a round through it. I replaced it with a Storm Lake barrel that supports the whole case. That barrel is for sale, too and two extra magazines.
Guys: When learning how to shoot, IE gun handling, target aquisition, repeat shots, clearing drills. Glocks are hard to beat.
I always make the point that Glocks only have 3 things you can do to them, Insert a Mag, Rack the Slide, and Pull the Trigger. When learning to shoot anything else is counterproductive, and the extra work load of a decocker is downright debilitating. Especially when you try to do it 800 times in a four day course, like at FrontSight.
I tried with a CZ40P DeCocker and failed to graduate 3 times. I found out the hard way that easier is better. I ran that gun thru 3 trips to Front Sight before I said F I and bought the G35. I graduated the next time thru, and my hands didn't even know I had shot 800 rounds. I had to soak my hands in Ice Water at noon and after the the class was over every day with the CZ gun.
Whereas they don't have the ultimate accuracy like a hopped up 1911, they do have the simplisity and ergonomics, and the process of shooting one leaves you much more time for actually aiming the gun, so unless you are shooting at golf balls at 50 yards, you could probably benefit from using a Glock. You can always add the 1911 safety or a decock mechinism later when you are proficient in shooting, and have the fundimentals down pat.
I have a Para-Ordanance 16/40LDA which is probably going to be converted to a G23 pretty soon. I will outfit the same way as my G35, IE Sights, Barrel, mag release, slide release, and plastic magwell.
The point of doing this is to have the same sights, triggers and controls on all of my defense guns.
I do love the 1911's, and the new ones out there would make John Browning himself tear up with happyness after seeing what they've done to his guns. But when push came to shove and I had a choice, I'd grab my Glock long before a Kimber.
Now if a Kimber came sliding across the floor to me when lead was flying, I'd probably consider myself real lucky, I'd just have to think a little more, and make some adjustments while shooting it.
I can actually shoot one of those too. I just choose to shoot the Glock more.
Incidentally, Dawson Precision has STI "Spartan 1911's" for sale right now for only $629. This is a Killer deal on a gun that is arguably one of the best there is, yet I can't have one because they are not on the CA list.
This is what happens when you elect fools to run your state.
Randy
I started competitive pistol shooting (IPSC and pins) in the 70's with a tricked out 1911 in .45 ACP. I quit shooting pistol around 1990. My Springfield XDm is the first polymer frame striker fired pistol I have owned. I do like the minimum number of controls on the XD.
Jim Skeel
You guys are leaving out something real important when you are checking how much case support your barrels have. The old standard of dropping a round into the barrel and seeing what you have doesn't give the whole picture. It depends on how deep the chamber happens to be cut on that barrel and how well the barrel fits the slide. To do it right you put a case in the barrel and then the barrel in the slide. You have to push the case all the way back against the breach face with the barrel in battery position to see how much case is really exposed. It might scare you to see the real amount of unsupported case when you see it done right, I've seen it done by a good gunsmith and learned.
Here are some shots of the Lee taper crimp seater die and their "Bulge Buster" kit. If you back the die out until you have just enought ram travel to push the shell through the crbide ring it reduces the force required considerably.
Jim Skeel
Jim: I got to shoot the Glock with the new sights and new barrel yesterday. Ran 100 rnds thru it.
When I installed the sights I centered the front sight by measuring the slide on both sides until I got the same measurement. I did the same thing with a drop indicator to center the rear sight. The I set the elevation on the rear sight by using the drop indicator and matching the elevation of F&R.
I shot first at 15 yards,and was 1" left and 1" low. I corrected and was right on. 5 shots inside of 1.5" at 15 yds. I did not have a camera with me so you'll just have to take my word on the group sizes.
Then I moved to 25 yds. Had to correct again 2 clicks to the right and 2 clicks up. 5 shots in 3". Not the stunning accuracy I was looking for, but OK from a new barrel. I was looking for more like 2" at 25 yds.
These were all shot with my current standard reloads of 5.0gr W231 using the Ranier 165 gr copper plated lead bullets. I will try some different powders to see if It will do better. Winchester cases and primers. I think it will do better.
I've got to tell you all, I absolutely love these Dawson Precision sights. They pic up really quickly, and I can get a level of precision I couldn't with my previous sights which I made. I am going to change the front fiberoptic to the dayglow green one tonight, the red one just doesn't illuminuate well in lower light, like the shade, and the green one does. I really like the Hiviz dayglo green front bead on my Citori.
WR why did you have to center the front sight by taking measurements? Does it not go on with a bolt like any other glock front sight? Dawsons instructions say nothing about it.
SBE; There is some clearance in the little oval key on the bottom of the sight that goes into the slide, as a result the sight can be cocked or twisted to the right or left a few degrees. It was easier to use calipers to measure both sides than eyeball it. I don't like getting too serious with the microscpopic screw that holds Glock front sights on so getting it centered up the first time is a good idea. Repeated tightening of that screw is dangerous, Plus if you twist one off in the sight it would be a $40 disaster, as getting it out would be shear luck for anyone. I didn't measure it but it looks like a 00-90 or 000-100 thread. If you couldn't get ahold of it you'd play hell drilling it out. There are no easyouts that small, and if there were they would be very dangerous tools to use.
I used some blue loctite to glue it in, so maybe it can be removed some day. They shoot loose if you don't glue them in, been there.
I also had to file the front side of the dovetail on the rear sight to get it to go into the dovetail on the slide. It took about 15 minutes of filing and test fitting to creap up on it so it fit tight and yet could be moved by tooncing it with a small hammer and the little punch they supply with the sight.
I used my drop indicator to equalize the position of the rear sight so windage would be neutral to start. Like I said above, at 25 yards it was only 4 clicks total off sideways and 4 clicks up to zero elevation, so it was worth doing it this way.
These sights are definately worth the cost, the front was 39.95, and the rear was $79.95. I bought them from Dawson as Brownells didn't have the selection so I couldn't get the racers discount from them.
Randy
What is everyone's experience with Rainier 165 grain Hex HP bullets? I picked some up at the Indy Gun Show the other day but have not had a chance to load and shoot them. The fellow selling them at the show said they were double struck meaning the HP was formed after the bullet was sized and plated.
Jim Skeel
Best tech thread in a long time...
WR, just curious...have you ever chrono'ed to see how much extra velocity you get out of the longer tube on the G35, vs. the G22? I've heard of guys getting an extra 100, even 150 fps.
Have you shot the G24 also? I need a major gun for matches and was thinking one of these might do the trick...or, might just get the 9 version, stoke it with +Ps and use regular stuff for other types of shooting.
Would love to hear from someone who knows.
Buzz: I would doubt there is any significant difference in Vel in a G35 with a 5.3" bbl, and a G22 with a 4" bbl. My Bro in law has a G22 and I have a G35 so the next time we set up the Chrony we'll see if there is any difference with Win 165gr Factory loads. I doubt it will even be 20 FPS, I wouldn't believe 100-150fps unless I saw it myself.
I have only seen one G24 in person, mainly because they are not on our F$%^&@ approved list in CA. However 180GR bullets at 950 fps are certainly as powerful as a 230gr .45ACP at 750fps so I think it will send the pins a flyin'. The inherant accuracy of a Glock is not what you're used to with a hotrod 1911 pin gun though.
Usually in Rifles with 18" + barrels there ends up being about a 12-13 fps per inch change in velocity as length increases. I am quoting Brian Pearce's extensive article on the Marlin 45-70's in Handloader Magazine.(#248 Aug 2007)I personally think this is the best issue of this magazine ever done, and I've read this article 25-30 times easily (toilet reading) But I digress.
He had shot indentical loads in Marlin 45-70's with 18.5, 22, and 26" barrels. the velocities ranged from 1233-1310 for light loads to 2005-2110 for hotter loads. With the lo end of each type load being shot thru the 18.5" barrel and the hi end thru the 26" barrel. The 22" barrel was pretty much in the middle of the other two. This works out to about 12-14 fps per inch of length increase.
I would expect slightly more per inch in a faster rifle cartridge such as any thing in the 2500 to 3500 fps range..
Obviously in a pistol the difference of 12-14 FPS wouldn't even be detectable as your variation from rnd to rnd could easily be that much or more.
The current issue of Handloader Magazine Aug 2010 #267 has an article on the .40S&W and the "Glock Bulge" However it does not contain 1/10 the information that is in this thread, and it was done by Charlie Petty, a guy who actually knows what he is talking about. It was more of an article about the Redding bulge removal tool than what we talked about here. He did state that most of the severe bulge blow ups were in early First Gen Glocks and that the problem mysteriously disappeared after the first couple of years.
I have been considering extracting all the meaningful data in this thread along with pictures and submitting it to Dave Scovill for consideration. Maybe we'll get published.
Randy
I have access to one of the 6" barrels to chrono some loads. I don't have a G22 to compare against, but comparing to published data should still provide some interest.
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
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I also load 10mm with Dillon dies without issue. My 10mm is a Colt Delta Elite. Again, no issues.
My only point here is that the Dillon dies and presses work extremely well.
Their customer service is absolutely the best in the industry!
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OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: skeeljc
Email:
skeeljcATverizon.net
Date: Tue, Jul 27, 2010 - 10:41 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: W.R.Buchanan
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Date: Wed, Jul 28, 2010 - 01:46 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: skeeljc
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Date: Wed, Jul 28, 2010 - 04:56 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: W.R.Buchanan
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Date: Wed, Jul 28, 2010 - 09:20 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: STOS
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Date: Thu, Jul 29, 2010 - 11:43 AM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: W.R.Buchanan
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Date: Thu, Jul 29, 2010 - 12:28 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: Savage99Stan
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Date: Thu, Jul 29, 2010 - 12:46 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: W.R.Buchanan
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Date: Thu, Jul 29, 2010 - 12:58 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: hmb
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Date: Thu, Jul 29, 2010 - 01:55 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: claybrdr
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Date: Thu, Jul 29, 2010 - 08:10 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: W.R.Buchanan
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Date: Fri, Jul 30, 2010 - 03:14 AM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: Shooting Coach
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Date: Sat, Jul 31, 2010 - 03:02 AM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: Shooting Coach
Email:
Date: Sat, Jul 31, 2010 - 03:26 AM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: W.R.Buchanan
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Date: Sat, Jul 31, 2010 - 06:49 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: Shooting Coach
Email:
Date: Sun, Aug 01, 2010 - 12:27 AM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: skeeljc
Email:
skeeljcATverizon.net
Date: Sun, Aug 01, 2010 - 11:07 AM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: sky buster
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Date: Sun, Aug 01, 2010 - 09:03 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: Shooting Coach
Email:
Date: Mon, Aug 02, 2010 - 12:57 AM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: skeeljc
Email:
skeeljcATverizon.net
Date: Tue, Aug 03, 2010 - 11:32 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: Shooting Coach
Email:
Date: Wed, Aug 04, 2010 - 10:32 AM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: W.R.Buchanan
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Date: Thu, Aug 05, 2010 - 09:23 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: Shooting Coach
Email:
Date: Thu, Aug 05, 2010 - 11:22 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: W.R.Buchanan
Email:
Date: Fri, Aug 06, 2010 - 12:28 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: skeeljc
Email:
Date: Fri, Aug 06, 2010 - 03:45 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: skeeljc
Email:
Date: Fri, Aug 06, 2010 - 03:46 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: W.R.Buchanan
Email:
Date: Fri, Aug 06, 2010 - 09:09 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: Shooting Coach
Email:
Date: Fri, Aug 06, 2010 - 09:32 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: sliverbulletexpress
Email:
Date: Fri, Aug 06, 2010 - 09:54 PM ET
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http://egw-guns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=40&products_id=40
Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: skeeljc
Email:
skeeljcATverizon.net
Date: Fri, Aug 06, 2010 - 10:42 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: sliverbulletexpress
Email:
Date: Fri, Aug 06, 2010 - 11:53 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: Shooting Coach
Email:
Date: Sat, Aug 07, 2010 - 12:41 AM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: skeeljc
Email:
skeeljcATverizon.net
Date: Sat, Aug 07, 2010 - 08:20 AM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: Quack Shot
Email:
Date: Sat, Aug 07, 2010 - 11:44 AM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: mallardfilmore
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Date: Sat, Aug 07, 2010 - 11:54 AM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: W.R.Buchanan
Email:
Date: Sat, Aug 07, 2010 - 12:55 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: W.R.Buchanan
Email:
Date: Sat, Aug 07, 2010 - 03:54 PM ET
Website Address:
Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: skeeljc
Email:
skeeljcATverizon.net
Date: Sat, Aug 07, 2010 - 09:41 PM ET
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http://www.trapshooters.com/noframes/cfpages/thread.cfm?threadid=223862
Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: W.R.Buchanan
Email:
Date: Mon, Aug 09, 2010 - 02:31 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: W.R.Buchanan
Email:
Date: Mon, Aug 09, 2010 - 03:17 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: W.R.Buchanan
Email:
Date: Mon, Aug 09, 2010 - 03:44 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: skeeljc
Email:
Date: Mon, Aug 09, 2010 - 05:16 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: W.R.Buchanan
Email:
Date: Mon, Aug 09, 2010 - 07:24 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: Shooting Coach
Email:
Date: Tue, Aug 10, 2010 - 01:06 AM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: Quack Shot
Email:
Date: Tue, Aug 10, 2010 - 10:05 AM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: W.R.Buchanan
Email:
Date: Tue, Aug 10, 2010 - 01:22 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: Quack Shot
Email:
Date: Wed, Aug 11, 2010 - 03:27 AM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: W.R.Buchanan
Email:
Date: Wed, Aug 11, 2010 - 04:22 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: skeeljc
Email:
skeeljcATverizon.net
Date: Wed, Aug 11, 2010 - 06:51 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: JTEA
Email:
Date: Thu, Aug 12, 2010 - 09:53 AM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: Quack Shot
Email:
Date: Thu, Aug 12, 2010 - 07:15 PM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: W.R.Buchanan
Email:
Date: Thu, Aug 12, 2010 - 10:13 PM ET
Website Address:
Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: Shooting Coach
Email:
Date: Fri, Aug 13, 2010 - 12:39 AM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: Quack Shot
Email:
Date: Fri, Aug 13, 2010 - 01:26 AM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: W.R.Buchanan
Email:
Date: Fri, Aug 13, 2010 - 01:06 PM ET
Website Address:
Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: Shooting Coach
Email:
Date: Fri, Aug 13, 2010 - 01:20 PM ET
Website Address:
Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: W.R.Buchanan
Email:
Date: Sun, Aug 15, 2010 - 04:57 PM ET
Website Address:
Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: Quack Shot
Email:
Date: Sun, Aug 15, 2010 - 07:09 PM ET
Website Address:
Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: Shooting Coach
Email:
Date: Mon, Aug 16, 2010 - 12:00 AM ET
Website Address:
Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: skeeljc
Email:
Date: Mon, Aug 16, 2010 - 09:45 AM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: Jim Miller
Email:
Date: Mon, Aug 16, 2010 - 09:48 AM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: W.R.Buchanan
Email:
Date: Mon, Aug 16, 2010 - 05:46 PM ET
Website Address:
Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: skeeljc
Email:
Date: Mon, Aug 16, 2010 - 06:02 PM ET
Website Address:
Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: sliverbulletexpress
Email:
Date: Mon, Aug 16, 2010 - 06:16 PM ET
Website Address:
Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: skeeljc
Email:
skeeljcATverizon.net
Date: Thu, Aug 19, 2010 - 04:17 PM ET
Website Address:
Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: W.R.Buchanan
Email:
Date: Thu, Aug 19, 2010 - 07:45 PM ET
Website Address:
Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: sliverbulletexpress
Email:
Date: Thu, Aug 19, 2010 - 08:48 PM ET
Website Address:
Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: W.R.Buchanan
Email:
Date: Fri, Aug 20, 2010 - 03:04 AM ET
Website Address:
Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: skeeljc
Email:
skeeljcATverizon.net
Date: Wed, Sep 01, 2010 - 06:44 PM ET
Website Address:
Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: buzz-gun
Email:
Date: Thu, Sep 02, 2010 - 12:07 AM ET
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Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: buzz-gun
Email:
Date: Thu, Sep 02, 2010 - 10:27 PM ET
Website Address:
Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: W.R.Buchanan
Email:
Date: Sat, Sep 04, 2010 - 07:10 PM ET
Website Address:
Subject:
OT--------Reloading the .40 S&W--------OT
From: buzz-gun
Email:
Date: Sat, Sep 04, 2010 - 11:43 PM ET
Website Address:
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