Will dry firing a mechanical trigger do damage to the springs and other parts over a repeated period of time, say 50 times a day at a wall chart?

The only manufactory stated it's ok to dry fire their guns is Ruger. However, I dry fire my guns all the time.

Kolar can also be dry fired. Bill Malcolm

If you are going to do that much dry firing I suggest using snap caps. Better safe than sorry. Not a gunsmith, just 50 times a day seems like a lot to me.

Jason

The kind of dry firing damage you need to be most watchful for is the kind resulting from those certain type of snap caps that go off and blow a hole in the wall.

Word from your Uncle Larry.

you must have not heard that snap caps are one the most dangerous pieces of trapshooting equipment that you can possess, I would really think of the safety of others around you......in fact, I may not shoot on the same line as another shooter using them.

tony

It is also ok to dry fire an Infinity. Dennis states don't use a snap cap.

Phil Berkowitz

For a center fire firearm, ( not a .22, that's a rimfire )the firing pin rides in the firing pin hole. Hammer strikes firing pin. Firing pin compresses firing pin spring. Firing pin proceedes forward into EMPTY CHAMBER. No damage done. Dry firing is an accepted practice procedure. The next time one of the dopes at Gander Mountain says " no dry firing, you will break it ", Ask him why.

Kenent1, I have 2 snap caps in my Kolar gun case and at the end of the day when I am done shooting I break my gun down (before putting it in the case for it's ride home). Also before I put it in the case I use the snap caps. After I release the tension off the springs I take the snap caps out and put them away along with the the gun parts. Now for the idiotic remark about not shooting on the same line as someone who uses snap caps. I would hope you wouldn't because I would not want to shoot on the same line as someone as dumb as you. You tell me one way the way I use snap caps would detour you from shooting with them because there unsafe not to mention an idiot remark from an idiot.

How can you break the bird with the snapcap in? Must be very dangerous!!!!!!!!!! Watch out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So the gunsmith in Chambersburg Pa. who yelled at me 42 years ago for dry firing a Parker SxS was wrong?

Sam

The owner's manual that came with my Ljutic emphasizes NOT dry-firing the gun without the use of a snap cap. Rick ~~~Texas

KENENT1 - I have no problem with somebody that wants to snap cap at home. Just don't do it at the gun club.

Sam,

Yup, he was wrong. Parker in their literature stated no damage from dry firing would happen. The firing pin was integral with the hammer.

You can dry-fire a Remington 3200 as they have rebounding hammers much the same as Ruger Red Label.

If you dry fire a Ljutic on an empty chamber you will bend the pins that go through the hammer which will give you a inconsistant lock time. This advise comes from Denny (now deceased) the long time gunsmith at Ljutic.

mrskeet410- If you don't want me to dry fire my gun before I take it down and put it in the case, how am I supposed to relieve the pressure on the springs? It can be several days before I get home.

I do not use snap caps, but I relieve the spring pressure before I take my K-80 apart.

Pat Ireland

Pat, You can always have 2 empty shells in your gun case, fire on the empties and when breaking the gun down remove them.

threedeuces.......my post was meant to poke fun at the people that preach doom and gloom at anything other people do that they don't agree with....I thought it was worded so the average person would know it was in fun.

I would think a squad of shooters snapping snapcaps would be one of the safest squads a person could be around, also one of the lowest scoring...

I personally use snapcaps every time I put my Beretta away....but thanks for pointing out that I am an idiot..I might have went through the whole day not knowing this.

I really do feel like an idiot explaining this to you.....but lets not argue, they might not be able to tell us apart.

I hope this helps.

tony

"How can you break the bird with the snapcap in? Must be very dangerous!!!!!!!!!! Watch out!!!!!!!!!!!!"

exactly!!!!

tony

OHHHHHH......... Looks like the long winter has started already and we aren't even through fall. Jeff

There are some guns that will break when dry fired. BT-100 is one that will as I did it in one of my clinics.

My Kgun (and all Kguns) is fine to dry fire

So I take it that my Kolar is safe to dry fire then?

Pat Ireland -

a) Take it apart, then drop the hammpers on a coin; or

b) Wait until you are home, or in your motel, or camper. The hammers and springs can wait that long; or

c) Don't drop the hammers.

I started dry firing guns on a wall that I painted targets on back in 1979. Back then I had a Rem. 870 and an 1000, you can't hurt them dry firing a Rem. rep told me.

In 1979 I got a Perazzi MX-3 that I shot until a couple years ago. I had spare firing pins and springs etc. At first I would just go through dry firing my empties about once kicking them out into a big box. I found most snap caps got a big firing pin dent in them fairly quickly so I started making my own. Pencil erasers fit in the primer hole real good I used them for awhile. I use to leave them sticking out a bit so there was extra like a primer not seated deep enough.

I started making my own snap caps with silicone in the primer hole. I used the Permatex brand silicone in small tubes you can buy in the Auto section at many different stores.

I would make about 30 up squeeze some through the primer holes and left some extra on top. I let them dry for a couple days then I trim the extra off leaving a piece sticking up about almost 1/8" like a primer not seated deep enough. That extra amount gets squeezed back in the primer pocket as the gun is closed and it makes the material denser and it works great. I have never broke a pin on that MX-3 using those kind of snap caps. I use each one for awhile and when it looks a bit soft where the pin hits I throw it away.

I send a couple to my Wall Chart customers with each chart. I cut the shell crimp off and down about another 1/2". It is shorter and does not look or feel like a real shell. There are 617 of the old Vandalia charts and 610 of the new Sparta models in use and one customer told me he broke a pin and it was on a weird O/U. that I had never heard of.

I probably picked that MX-3 up and dry fired it 40 times at least 20 days each month, a lot more closer to the Grand. I would do that about 9 months a year every year for 25 years. I wore lots of pins out they get worn down on the back where the hammer hits them. When they are worn too much you would get about two times a 100 where the shell did not go off because of a light primer hit. That was the key on the Perazzi the change pins. I probably threw about 12 away that were not broke in 25 years with that gun.

Picking the gun up regularly and dry firing produced such great results in competition that I was not worried if I had to replace a pin the odd time.

I think if the firing pin hits the snap cap and there is decent density to the silicone or the spring loaded cap it is no different than shooting a real shell and it won't hurt the gun.

Terry.

I hold an empty firmly against the firing pin with the barrel removed and pull the triggers. On a inertia gun if you cycle the safety it will switch barrels.

I have no issue with snap caps, I just am too cheap to purchase them and I don't do any dry firing around the house.

I never have and never will dry fire any of my guns, no matter who says what ... I pull the trigger on the Perazzi's I shoot as I close it and that releases the hammer but does not let it drop like it would just pulling the trigger on an empty barrel ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

When dry firing without a snap cap or other method of cushioning the firing pin the following scenario takes place: The hammer hits the firing pin and drives it forward at a high velocity. With nothing to cushion it's stop it will proceed forward until the shoulder of the firing pin contacts the inner surface of the receiver coming to an immediate stop. The inertia of the uncushioned firing pin tip tries to continue forward placing tremendous strain at the point where the firing pin changes from a large to the smaller diameter that protrudes through the pin hole in receiver. I have seen pins break at this juncture from dry firing. Additionally, if not broken, the very tip of the pin may have visible spalling (small chunks of metal missing from pin end, may look like small pits or even a portion of pin missing). This is not to say all pins will break every time, or multiple times, that they are dry fired. BUT WHY TAKE THE CHANCE.

I would never dry fire any of my trap guns. If a snap cap is not available I find the plastic handle butt end of a screwdriver placed firmly against the pin hole works well. Some guns can let the hammer fall safely and slowly by pulling the trigger when gun is open, and the slowly close the gun maintaining trigger pressure as it closes. As to the intellect of a person that can not tell the difference between a snap cap and a loaded shell---well I will let that speak for itself.

Marc

Marc- I agree with you that the sudden stop of an un-cushioned firring pin will cause stress on the pin due to inertia. Using some crude guesses about the weight of the pin and the travel speed, I roughly calculated this stress due to inertia to be less than one ounce. That is not much when you remember that the pin is subjected to +-8,000-9,000 pounds each time the gun is fired.

I don't know where my snap caps are or if I still have them. Tomorrow, after the registered shoot would it be OK if I just held my finger tightly over the firing pin hole and snapped the triggers?

Pat Ireland

I just heard some good advice from a friend about dry-firing on a Kohler. He said a little extra fiber with breakfast would really help. ;>) ....Rick

Pat, I think you will be very unhappy if the firing pin hits your finger.

If you want an absorber, use a maple block and hold it over the firing pins.

works great. Coins work too but they are harder than a primer. The pin energy is very large.

regards

Pat, I have no argument with the numbers you present. I am curious as to how you calculated one oz inertia. If by +8000 to 9000 each time the gun is fired refers to the chamber pressure acting thru the primer you must remember this only puts the pin in a compressive force and the pin is free to move rearward in response to the pressure. That 8-9K force is in PSI. Roughly the pin tip only presents about .05 sq in of surface area to this pressure for a gross instatanious push of 425 lbs. Also Dry firing puts the pin in tension. Inertia has to be calculated using mass X velocity change. All of this techy stuff is too much for my old brain. It's just been too long since college days.

I have seen firing pins fail from dry firing to the point where the pin tip will fly out the end of barrel. It does not happen often but it does happen. In the 70's I remember a gun manufacturer doing a pin re-design for this very reason. I do not remember the brand but I had one of them. I had a list of guns longer than my current memory.

One other problem arises from dry firing. When the pin shoulder hits the inside of the receiver it can have a peening effect. This done enough times could cause the pin tip to lodge in the receiver's pin hole.

I agree that many people dry fire and not have pin problems, but some do. I do not want to be one of them.

It would be fun to watch you use you finger as a snap cap. Just make sure it is an empty.

Good luck, Marc

Pat....if you would like, when you get done shooting you could send your lady's leg to me... I live on an 80 acer farm....I can SAFETLY, let the hammers down for you......free...just so nobody gets hurt.

tony

Marc- My real question about your post is not really about the results, but the cause of the results. I believe you assumed that the tip of the firing pin traveled directly into the firing pin hole in the receiver without the possibility of striking the receiver metal near the edge of the hole. I am not convinced that all firring pins are exactly centered behind the hole in the receiver. Hitting some metal during the pin travel could cause much more damage than inertia.

My personal view toward dry firing goes back to the days when I shot Bullseye pistol. An absolute requirement for this type of pistol shooting is to insert a magazine filled with lead and dry fire the 45 auto a minimum of 50 times every day at a spot on some wall in your home. This exercise is equally, perhaps more effective than shooting 50 rounds each day at paper targets.

The firing pis in my K-80 are very old and tired. They have fired over 300,000 registered birds and I guess they deserve to be treated nicer than I have treated them. I may look around for some snap caps. I know I have some. Then I will have to remember to use them. I will have another talk with my gun. When it shoots well for me, I will relieve the hammer springs using a snap cap. But, when it misses too many targets, it will get snapped on an empty chamber.

Pat Ireland

Pat, The important thing is to just have fun and enjoy. Sometimes (usually) I get carried away trying to remind myself how much I know. Lately it's more a matter of how much I have forgotten. Shoot well and save those fingers. Marc

I am absolutely certain that dry firing Pat's 1911 type 45 auto will result in no damage to the gun.

I am not familiar with the firing pin design on shotguns and am hoping more people with that knowledge will share it here. It is obvious that most people use snap caps with no real knowledge of the need to do so.

Anyone who uses their finger as a snap cap will only do it once. It's painful.

Col. Cooper said gun springs do not deteriorate from being compressed, they deteriorate from being cycled.

to the original question and in my humble opinion, I would not dry fire any of my shotguns 50 times per day. I suspect the benefit of wall chart practice will be the same using "simulated" fire. In other words, just pull the trigger on an uncocked gun.

to the seond part of the thread that sort of sprung up by itself, I agree with Wireguy - hammer springs are under compression whether you drop the hammer or not - you won't change the life of them by pulling the trigger.

wireguy- Be aware that there are some very different types of springs that push hammers forward. Thin circular springs with only a couple of loops, should never be stored with the hammers cocked. I think leaf springs could be damaged with storage under pressure. Long coiled compression springs should be OK unless they are compressed to near their maximum. A single answer to this question may not be accurate for all types of springs.

Pat Ireland

Hey Pat: When you have you receiver on stock in your hand aren't you suppose to bring the top lever forward first. For the triggers I put a towel over the "hooks", at the end of the receiver, and with some downward pressure pull the triggers to release them. The coin trick isn't necessary. Dave T.

i agree wat kind of an idiot would mix up any shells with a snap cap.... i mean if you have to buy a wooly cap. then do that. and dont be stupid and say your not going to shoot with somebody uses them

BT99 has a finger extending toward the rear from the left side of the receiver which intercepts the tube caging the hammer spring and limits its travel to the same distance with or without a shell or snapcap thus the firing pin never bottems out on the receiver