Frankly, the killed to wounded ratio in this particular incident does not speak well of a the capabilities of the 5.7mm pistol. My conjecture is that the body count would have been higher if a more traditional handgun round had been used, like the 45 ACP.

You can spin this whole ammo and pistol deal every which way but straight. The bullet size has little to do with the kill ratio of unarmored subjects.... in proper hands a 22 LR could have resulted in more deaths than a 45 in less than capable hands... This whole 5.7 issue is a ridiculous argument.

Personally I think he was a piss poor shot.

That little 5.7 is nasty and I,d rather be hit with a 9 or 45. That's the round that is used in that space age looking FN machine gun

As I said in both my post, we don't know all the details about this shooting, we shouldn't make statements like how effective the cartridge was.

According to the information we have so far, the shooter hit the police woman, Sgt. Kimberly D. Munley with 3 shots, two on the leg, one on her wrist, made her among the 30 wounded.

And Sgt. Munley (a weapon expert, weapon instructor, & member of SWAT team), as she running toward the killer, shot him 4 times, 2 on upper torso, using her duty weapon (Beretta 92 or 96) with police issue HPs. But the SoB didn't die.

Are we going to argue which rounds are more effective? Stop speculating.

All I know is if the shooter was using your "Real man's 1911", the number of total casualties will be less.

And Sgt. Kimberly D. Munley is a hero. A real one, not politically made one.

Toolmaker 251 & Steve W,

You're both correct. The SS109 is the 5.56x45 NATO with 62gr bullet (steel penetrator) and usually painted green tipped. The SS190 is the original FN 5.7x28 able to penetrate body armor.

Chichay

So what is the difference, the media talking about the 'assault weapon' five se7en or you guy doing an arm chair forensics debate on whether this is a good round to shoot people with? WTF....

Any of you guys ever actually been around real violence?

1. We do not know how many times he shot.

2. We do not know if any were hit by friendly fire.

3. We do not know if any were hit by ricochet. Or after penetration of office equipment.

4. We think he had 2 guns. Don't know how many clips. Or the capacity of each.

Frankly, my guess is that none of us has ever been qualified in court as an expert witness on any ballistic topic.

BTW, the legal and public relations problems of the hospital that has the SOB on life support are interesting.

Let's wait for more info.

The FN round is a joke that's not much more than a smaller version of the .221 Fireball. It will penetrate armor up close which is bad if you're the good guy wearing it, but, after that it doesn't do much. It will tumble in the ballistic gel but one rotation and it's done and that doesn't equate to any sort of depth which was only a couple of inches. Into bare gel it'll still tumble once with slightly more penetration than going through armor first (no kidding)but will often go way off the original path as in leaving the gel block on occasion. Since you can't control where it tumbles to, there's just as much chance it'll move away from the desired target location as there is for it to go where you might want it to. The wound channel is pretty small given all the hype surrouding the cartridge. The guns do work reliably but for all it's light weight the handgun is awfully large and kind of clunky handling. Ergonomically it just isn't all that good. The subguns are good for what they were designed for. A full auto weapon for people working in very tight environments like truck drivers and such. It's a waste as a LE weapon.

What mallard said.

So we're dissapointed with the kill ratio?

A thread in very poor taste and at a very inappropriate time.

Rest in peace my fallen sisters and brothers.

Guy Babin

The pistol and carbine have been around for 13 or so years. The HP round will defeat class11 body armor. There are 3 different kinds of bullets made for it. The standard bullets are not designed to penetrate but to go into soft flesh and tumble to make a large wound channel, do a google on the ammo shape. The pistol is discounted almost $1000

It's a glorified 22 magnum, nothing more.

Glorified 22 magnum? Have you fired one of these? These are nasty, not a squirrel round. Just the fact that he used this gun/round tells me that he planned this for a long time. It is not a standard, well known round.

Glorified 22 mag......RIGHT

50rds - 5.7 FN SS192 Hollow Point Ammo [SS192] $39.95 $29.95

This is 5.7X28 FN SS192 Hollow Point Ammo. This ammo has been banned from importation because of its penetrating abilities. This ammo has been almost impossible to find for the last few years. This ammo is packed in 50rd. boxes, 2000rds. per ammo can.

What are the ballistics of this bullet? Can't find it listed in my ammo catalogues. G.E.G.

ss-190---350fps--397 ft lbs

ss-192--2350fps--344 ft lbs

Definetly not a normal 22

Phil Berkowitz

The current legally available 5.7 ammo and 22 mag are both about 1600fps too close to argue over. Comparing the ammo that can't be bought anymore is senseless as is comparing carbine ballistics to a pistol.

Rather be shot by a 9 or 45 than the 5.7? OMG that has to be the most ludicrous statement I've read even on here. Personally I don't want to be shot by anything again.

If I paid that much for a plastic pistol with a horrible trigger and uh unusual safety position I guess I would defend the heck out of it too.

Really my point is only that the 5.7 is an incredibly overhyped gunshop commando\gunwriters wet dream. It's not a death ray the gun rags try to say it is, I think we all can see that now.

"The current legally available 5.7 ammo and 22 mag are both about 1600fps too close to argue over. Comparing the ammo that can't be bought anymore is senseless as is comparing carbine ballistics to a pistol."

WRONG......It may be over hyped but it ain't no 22......and there's a reason that restrictions are on the ammo......DUUUUHHHHH

BTW....the ammo is available that is restricted......shows how good that system works.

Ibought the gun because they wanted to ban it, Shot it a few times. I'm not a pistol shoter. I managed to get some of the good ammo while it was available. I know I"ll hit and stop anything I point the gun at, not aim at. I can't say that for my XD compact in 45 acp.

Phil Berkowitz

We shot the hollow point which is considered "practice" ammo and the black tip "duty" ammo into the gel and both were almost identical in performance. Both would penetrate level 2 armor at about 15', and we shot that distance because that's all the room we had in the office to test it. Both did the same thing in the gel and that was make one full 360 rotation, and stop. The gel result was the about the same whether it went through the vest first or was fired directly into bare gel. About one full rotation and that was it. No real wound cavaity to speak of. I'm just not going to be too willing to count on it for much of anything due to the results of what we saw when we shot it. Sorry if the info is an afront to those who coughed up to buy the gun but bullet performance in the gel was too erratic and the lack of much of a wound cavity just left us rather cold on the whole thing.

You keep repeating that the 5.7 is no 22, 5.7mm equals .2245, that's not a 22? I guess our military 5.56 isn't a 22 either?

The primary reason for penetration is bullet speed as a basic fact. When you add a hardened penetrator you add to the penetration capability threw certain materials. It would have worked just as well if you had that bullet construction in a 22 mag bullet but it hasn't been done because the 22 mag was never marketed as a military round. There is not magic in the 5.7, mallardfilmore just gave a very accurate accounting of it's performance. That 5.7 Nato ammo kinda got threw under the radar for awhile and the FN advertising dept. capitalized on it's performance until the govt realized what it was.

In the past when vest standards and high performance materials weren't as good it was common knowledge that a 22mag solid point would penetrate the popular concealed vests of the day at least out of a rifle, so would a 30 carbine and many other rounds.

BTW just for information a wildcat round based on the 10mm case and another case I don't remember which, necked down to 5.6 was developed in the USA by some individuals with equal if not better performance than the FN 5.7. Especially when those boys turned out some solid copper bullets but I better not go there. They had it chambered in a HiCap 1911 style very high quality modular pistol but the whole project disappeared somewhere. I wonder if this is where FN got the idea? NAH PBB where are you?