Ljutic had those on some of the space guns. Have a buddy that has one. Have shot them and they are not easy to master. Requires a certain type of mindset AND especially what you learned how to shoot well on. That is why we see so many low rib guns. A lot of people learned on them. I learned on a 1100 TA MC. So I shoot that particular set up well.

It's my understanding that those short ribs are popular in Australia. I've experimented with a few and found them interesting, the jury's still out. Vicki Keen can make you any size and type you'd like to try. All the best, Bob

Ahmed was the first that I know of to shoot a high rib in Double Trap. It wasn't until his success with it that Perazzi came out with the MX2005, Hakan Dahlby of Sweden still shoots one of their first prototypes. The only reason Ahmed and other Beretta shooters "add on" a rib is because Beretta does not produce a high rib gun/barrel (yet.....). There are rumors that they will have one very shortly. One of the advantages to having the add on so short is to avoid a blind spot when shooting Double Trap on post 2 for righties, 4 for lefties. Now some shooters who use the MX2005 and K Special Trap are removing segments of the high rib to keep from being obstructed. I have restrained from taking a hack saw to my MX2005 so far, but do have a blind spot on post 2, A setting depending on how the targets are set and how far down in the house the machines are (i.e. Kerrville) and have to shoot that pair left to right.

Jeff Holguin

ALRIGHT!!! Jeff's in the house. Thanks Jeff, that was a very interesting comment. I hope you don't have to resort to the hack saw :) Great shooting this weekend by the way. We were all cheering for you.

Go Army! Charlie C.

I AM PLEASED AS PUCNCH TO SEE 'PERRAZIUSER"-- PICKING UP ON THIS THREAD- JEFF THANK YOU FOR INPUT

JEFF -CHRIS HAF POSTED THE HEADS UP ON THE BEIGING PODCASTS---THEY WERE GREAT--I POSTED THEM ON ANOTHER THREAD --WORLD CUP BEIGING-PODCAST".

PROPLEM WAS THET DID NOT POST THE LONG VERSION--- FINALS DOUBLE TRAP-- ONLY THE 3MINUTE CONDENSED VERSION--TOO BAD VERY VISUAL

JEFF EVER THINK THAT A SIMILAR HIGH QUALITY --CANERA ANGLES, COMMENTARY ETC.---COULD BE DONE TO PROMOTE ATA ...JUST A THOUGHT

ALL THE BEST DOWN THE LINE---YOUR ADMIRER!!

BY THE BY IAM 66 BUT HAVE FALLEN FOR YOUNG ROSSI!!!!

MIKE SGNT/MAJ RE IDF ---SNIPER INSTRUCTOR

I GOOTA REREAD MY POSTS-FOR TYPOS ---TOO LAZY I GUESS..APOLOGIZE..MIKE

I believe this is an example of some people have different needs for fitting but I also believe it is extremely rare for and individual to have to go that far from "conventional" thinking.

It is also in my own opinion that if you have enough time, money, and dedication, you can make anything work up to a certain level, eventually you hit the wall that won't let you improve. You see this in all kinds of sports, someone comes up with something radicaly different that turns the world on it's head but it fades and conventional ways come back. Don't get me wrong, I have respect for this guy, he has shot extremely well but I'm not convinced he did it in spite of his equipment not because of it.

I'm not an old curmudgeon who refuses to change either, I just need convincing. Most people are surprised at how open minded I am for my age.

Thanks Charlie. SGM, did you happen to see Jessica Rossi's score in the final? As she came walking off the line I told her, "you are still a World Champion." Not sure if she took any comfort in that, considering the way I feel immediately after a poor performance but she did manage a small smile. You bring up a very interesting point about covering ATA in a similar way as the ISSF does for the international game. I would be willing to bet that live, online coverage of shootoffs at the Grand would be a big hit with shooters around the country that can't make it to Sparta....

Jeff Holguin

First of all I apologize for using all CAPS. Reason --and I know it is considered yelling, I have a laptop and wi-fi and like to layback on the coach and type one handed while using the other to hold the machine---won't do it again---MIKE

Jeff did see Miss Rossi's score-- I would think she raelizes it was a strange situation. She looked like one frozen puppy. Michael Diamond said she more than once cleaned his clock in Italy--she seems to be a tough young lady and will push that score behind her---what was it 10-12 ---most of the other scores wern't much better. The China lady hung tough though.

Re. Podcast of Grand. You gotta admit the ISSF did an outstanding job --and the camera work was great. With flash targets --very visual & pleasing. Have used them here for finals....made them ourselves in the 80s-90's as were expensive to import. A tablespoon of colored soap powder and a piece of bistal board paper cut and glued to the bottom--worked well.

Question to Jeff and Allan Chubb if you see this. How would a club like Lonato or elsewere finance a setup like that -- the new range to Ronato ?? built an example. Read somewere costwas $25M.I would think that the membership plus shoots would barely pay for upkeep let alone pay off investement....Cyprus is a differant as the government has deep pockets and builds the ranges ane turns them over to the Cypriot Shooting Association....built a new range at Larnaka ex. And China built the new range for the Olympics - if I remember--so thats a special case....also Mirabor comes to mind. Maybe angles with again deep pockets.....just wondering.

BEST TO ALL_MIKE

Mike-Israel

The long version is on the Issf tv site. Just scroll down, it is currently 9 from the top. http://issf-sports.org/tvplayer.aspx At says long version to the right of preview. It is not highlighted but it is a good link.

Mike-Israel,

You're asking a complex question that is impossible to offer a simple answer to in this forum. The range that Renato Lamera and his family built at TAV Cieli Aperti in Bergamo, Italy was built as an extension to their families passion for the sports. The Lamera family owns a very large gravel and concrete company (Do you see where this is going already?). You will never know what the real costs were to build this range, because they were not dealing with retail pricing as other ranges would have to consider before construction. In short, you'd be trying to compare apples to zebras if you're looking for pricing structure for a similar facility. They already owned the land so it's impossible to quantify that into the costs of the facility. It really doesn't matter because of the extremely unique dynamics of the family and their overall life long commitment to the sports.

It is a fabulous facility and the Lamera's are adding new features to it very time we visit. I was there on two different trips this year and it's nice to see that they are really adding details to the facility as it relates to shooter comforts. The Armeria (Pro Shop) is currently under construction in which there will be an apartment on the second floor for Renato's daughter to occupy. Renato, his Father, Son and Daughter are all 100% involved in this venture. As most people know Renato is a world renowned trick shooter and has made a wonderful reputation for himself throughout Europe and epecially Italy. His successful trick shooting career has helped to finance the venture as well as brought the spot light of his fame to their efforts at this range. Building a range such as this in Italy can not be compared to any other place in the world. Italy is a gem where such a well run facility like this can flourish and be tremendously successful. Building this range in any other place in the world would bring economic ruin to its investors within the first year. This range is crowded on every Wednesday afternoon and on every Saturday and Sunday. The range is in constant use during the other days by national team members from other nations as well as Italian businessmen slipping out of the office for a few hours to train and enjoy the sport.

Other ranges such as those built recently in Cyprus and Munich, Germany are not expected to turn a profit or for that matter even come close to it, because it was built with government/tax money. No government on this planet cares about building any profitable venue no matter what it is, because the concept of profits are foreign and ugly to governments especially those of a Socalist nature. They only understand taxation and don't believe in profit. Success is irrelevant when government money is used, nor is it expected and that's exactly why most of them are not successful/profitable.

I would recommend to cease over thinking this matter and accept it for what it is, where it is and enjoy it when you can.

Best Regards,

Allen Chubb

Allan my friend --and I hope I can call you a brother in this great , expensive nutty sport......u da man.

You answered very accurately what I had deduced......no collary between investement and return. Just too bloody expensive to built and run. Even if you could get squading for 24 hour days it would prove hard enough to break even. You need angles whether its deep pockets of fanatics or government largess.

That is why a salute you and your backers on this project.

That was more than I knew about the Ronato range. Italy is special.

Cyprus also as you probably know is also a special case. They replaced and reopened the Larnaka range. I have shot in Niccosia, Limassol ---which is also A1--- and two others. My wife and I were doing a day run around the Trudos mountain spine. Rounded a bend and another range --Marrachino--above Limassol. Anyway a tip of the hat to a nation of 639,000 and a government that goes out of its way to support the clay sports.

Was Maribor also set up by the --would it be Slovania or previous Czeckaslovakian --spelling--communist regieum......alos Zagreb comes to mind.

Again great reply to a retorical , but interesting question on Olympic (for better term) range financeing.....................MIKE

Appropo to nothing or government support.

When I was at the Hngarian shoot..september 08..Karoly Gombos the Sarloozpuzta club manager told me two stories.

1)Karoly was a shooter on the national squad in the 80's (Allan did you ever run into him..nice guy)--when he went out of thr country each shooter had a minder to prevent the shooter from bugging out- defect. At one stage before he was married with a baby boy at home ,they wouldn't let him compete out of country. He spoke german and english --so evidently they thought he could do a bunk easily.

2) Karoly also said the following: Each shooter was alloted X amt of practice ammo a year---lets say 30,000 shells.They worked on zero sum accounting..I suppose-- if lets say you had 2000 left at end of year and you turned them in --then the following year your alloted number of shells would be also deleted by the surplus amount. Soooooooooooo at year end they would all go to the city dump, with their Perazzis and shoot up the shells on rats. Said he missed those days.

My wife says I have a tendancy to ver of on tangets....MIKE

Allan and Jeff again thanks for your postings .

We have turned this thread into a symposiem on Bunker shooting and the international scene ---all fine with me as I have learned quite a bit form your last posts.

Sportshot --Also to you for the posting of the Ronato's range. Those who have not checked out their internet site and the photo albumn do so as will blow your mind --the quality and thought of the final result..I will post the url beloe.

http://www.cieliaperti.com/eng/shooting_range_cieli_aperti.php

Also the Cyprus pictures below. The picture of the bunker showing the Matterelis is very good.

Agaim all the best...MIKE

http://www.trapshooters.com/noframes/cfpages/thread.cfm?threadid=179682