Scott,

5% of the total in your account. It is a great deal for teams. It enables you to have a little more money to help offset some of the cost to parents.

For example, the fees for the kids to shoot at the AIM Nationals were $50.00 per shooter. We took 20 kids, $1,000.00 was our registration fee.

In Missouri, some youth shoots are sponsored by MYSSA (Missouri Youth Sport Shooting Alliance) They recieved a large amount of money as a donation from Midway Foundation. They in turn donmate back to teams that shoot in their sponsored shoots. Teams that have a Midway Foundation account automatically got $3,00.00 deposited into their account, Just for attending and shooting the tournament.( That money is not matched by Midway because it was essentially already Midway money)

SCTP is also heavily involved with the program.

There is another thread on here from Midway Foundation with contact info where you can get all the info you ned to know. Check them out.

Wingmaster -

Thanks for clarifying. I guess I don't understand the 5 percent limitation. Unless people stop donating, how can you ever use all the money in the account. If someone donates $100 the most that can be used during that year would be $5 (or $20 if you count the Midway match money). Are people willing to donate $100 knowing that only $5 of it will be used in the short-term?

Still seems like I'm missing something.

Scott

Scott,

Here is more information on the grants

http://www.scholasticshootingtrust.org/Grants.aspx

Dennis

Scott:

You're not missing anything that I can see. From what is available on the website, it is a charitable foundation set up to help fund amateur shooting sports. Donations are made to the Midway organization, not to any particular team. Yes, an "account" is set up for designated teams, but that is not the team's money, it is just a bookkeeping entry set up to keep track of how much the 5% grant limit may be at any given year. Donations to the "account" are matched at 3:1. Teams are allowed to apply for a grant of up to 5% of the balance in their "account" once per year. A team will never receive the balance in the account. Donations are to the Midway charitable organization, not to any specific team.

Nothing wrong with this, just pointing out it is designed as more of an endowment, where generally the principle stays intact and only the earnings are used to make grants; not something where I donate $100 and the team gets to use the $100. Better that everyone understands this.

I've been a youth shooting coach for several years now having been a founding member of the Tennessee SCTP program and a former director there. The teams I coach shoot in both the Tennessee SCTP program and the A.I.M. program. In the early years of the SCTP, the national championship was shot at the Grand.

I am glad that in Tennessee, trap shooting is a school sport, at least in some middle Tennessee counties it is. The Tennessee SCTP does a lot of good things for youth shooters in our state and they put on a very good state championship. That being said, I've never liked the division of the kids that the SCTP has as it does not take into account the skill levels of the competitors. For example, in high school ( the level I coach at )there is only varsity and junior varsity. What differentiates between the two levels is a students experience level within the program. If a student has less than one years experience in the program they are a junior varsity member, if they have more than one year they are varsity. There is no provision for skill level. This always bothered me as a coach because I wanted to see more kids at lower skill levels have the opportunity to win within their skill level. I'm not advocating the soccer mentality of everyone getting a trophy, far from it! It's just that at SCTP shoots, the top three to five teams are always shooting for the trophies and the rest of the field gets nothing.

I always believed that the ATA's class system was a better system of classification and division among skill levels. Back when Edie Fleeman was youth director for the ATA, I met with her to pitch a plan to install a youth shooting program within the ATA's rules and classification system which was already in place and in use at all ATA shoots. She and I met when we could to hammer out some rough spots as to divisions among ages, etc. My brother Alan Loveless and his wife Betty Loveless ( who were the directors of the Tennessee SCTP program for a few years when it started ) also attended these meetings when they could to add their valued input and experience.

When we had what we thought was a viable program, we asked for and recived an audience with the ATA's excutive committee in order to present what we came up with. We proposed calling the program ATA's AA for ATA's Academic Athletes. The EC was very receptive to this proposal and adopted the new program in lieu of the old one that was run under the Hall of Fame youth program.

In my opinion, the best parts of the program as proposed were the class system so that competitors were competing against individuals or teams of like ability. Using the average card, if a member kept their card up to date, one could properly assign an accurate, or as closely as possible to being accurate, a class based on known ability. Like a lot of things within the ATA, this average is based not only on ones ability but on ones integrity.

One of the other big proposals presented to the EC that day was to stop treating the youth members as if they were not ATA members. This program was to ensure that they kids felt included in the Grand as they should be. We proposed always having their event the first weekend of the Grand on what I believe was the NRA singles 200 target event. This would help parents by not requiring them to use so much time from work to bring their children to the Grand and in some cases it would help keep the kids from missing more school then necessary. I'm sure the vendors love having the kids as well as their families in attendance at the Grand instead of days before the Grand starts. When we proposed the program to the EC, we made it clear that none of us were looking for a job or recognition, we wanted a better program for the kids. The ATA adopted the program as I said but they contacted Alan and Betty and told them they were going to call it the A.I.M. program. That was a good move on their part.

After the 2011 A.I.M. championships, I was very pleased that after a rough couple of years in the beginning, it seemed the program had turned the corner and everything was beginning to run smoother, especially at the awards presentation. I was excited about the future of the program and the potential growth.

Then 2012 and the unbelievable changes came about. The Lewis class scoring, the seperating the kids completely from the Grand. Having the championships in the middle of the week. The lame excuse that the ATA classification system didn't work for the A.I.M. program. I couldn't believe what I was reading. To this day, I still don't understand why these changes were implemented. The team that I'm fortunate enough to coach is a pretty good team. The kids on this team take their ATA shooting seriously, they come to compete, not attend carnivals. They want to be treated like ATA members who are competing at the highest level within their age group and their sport.

The team I coach was the Tennessee State champions this year finishing 1st and Second in the Junior category and first in the sub junior category. We discussed attending the A.I.M. National Championship shoot as a team and decided not to attend the A.I.M. National Championship because of the way the program was being run this year. Out of the 21 ATA members on the team, 10 of them are coming to the Grand to compete during Grand week. Hopefully they will all shoot very well. Last year one of our team members, Nick Nadeau, was the Grand American Junior Clay Target Champion.

I've gone long but when I read posts where folks state that the A.I.M. is not part of the ATA, or that the classification system doesn't work for the program, I have to respond not from what I've read or heard, but from my experience base.

I hope this gives some insight into where the program got started and why. Thanks for your time reading this.

Ben Loveless

Head Coach

Coffee County Claybusters

Manchester, Tennessee

My eyes!!!

Much better..

Sorry Big M. I went back and spaced it out a little bit. Hope that helps. Ben

Well said, Mr.Loveless.

We did attend the AIM Nationals this year.

The shooting carnival was ONLY for AIM registered shooters. They did have a Parent shootbut you had to have a child registered in the National event. There was also a Coach shoot.

The kids were not allowed to test-drive any shotguns on Saturday or Sunday. Only Monday and Tuesday. I know this because one of or coaches wanted to demo a Beretta on Sunday and he was told, "No guns are to be demoed until Monday, per direction of the ATA/ AIM."

I'm still undecided on how I feel about the award system used this year. It's like someone stated earlier, a kid shoots a 159/200 and wins 1st place in division 3 but the kid that shot a 160/200 is last place in division 2. Doesn't seem quite fair to me.

I'm sure it will all be different again next year.

Wingmaster:

I'll ask you a question because I believe BigbadBobs post made it sound like the ATA turned down receipt of $800,000 in grants each year for a multiyear period, which I believe is likely a very misleading statement.

Are you saying MYSSA received a direct grant from the Midway organization, and then paid that cash out directly to youth teams; and in addition Midway also setup the "accounts" for teams that shot in MYSSA shoots with allocations of $3,000? Or are you saying Midway allocated funds to an "account" for MYSSA which was then reallocated in the name of the teams if they shot the MYSSA shoots?

I'm sure Midway will make sizeable grants to organizations as they deem appropriate. I just think it should be clear to donors that money they donate to this organization will not be paid to the team as some posters make it sound. The teams will be able to request grants once a year based on the earnings of the theoretical "account" balance, up to 5%.

870

I would imagine that the money was reallocted to teams that had Midway accounts already set up. I don't believe that a team that did not have an account got the participation award.

I had heard also that the ATA was invited to Midway and walked away from the same deal BBB spoke of.

The best thing to do is contact The Midway Foundation and get the information straight from them. There are many ways to take advantage of the Potterfield and MIdway Foundation generosity.

+1 to Mr. Loveless, as a coach in Nebraska for the last 10 years his position is shared by many experienced coaches.

I have been coaching a high school team for 10 years. We went in 2005, before the SCTP ATA split and it was very apparent that the ATA considered the kids to be second class citizens.

We had 2,000 kids at the Nebraska state shoot (Cornhusker Nationals) in May. The divisions are high school or 4-H. If you are in the high school division every member of the squad must attend the same high school. Awards went to the best shooters, period. The less experienced shooters go to shoot a personal best and participate in the meet. The more experienced shooters have a shot at a medal. The point is that kids will come for the experience even when they know the probability of them winning a medal is slim.

I had to explain the Lewis class for AIM to my team a couple of times. It did not make any sense to them. As others pointed out a 159 could be first place in division 3 while a kid who breaks one more target is last place in division 2. Lewis makes sense when betting money as people would not bet if only the winner gets the purse. In this way I may have a bad day and still "hit the lewis". Let's propose that the awards at the "Real Grand" be distributed this way and see what happens.

Thanks Wingmaster. I've read the organization's documents and it is clear that the donations are for them to direct as they see fit, the money is not for any specific team. It's just that by getting people to donate to the organization, teams get to apply for a grant based on earnings from the theoretical "account", up to 5%.

It's a great idea, and teams can get a little money out of it by getting people to donate. I'm sure Midway will also make sizeable grants to shooting related causes of their choosing, which will undoubtedly end up helping out youth teams.

Care should be taken though to make sure postings don't mislead people into believing their donations will be paid over to the team of their choice.

EDIT: I can't really tell from what's out there if you get grants of 5% or if it is earnings limited to 5%. In reality, a club will not be earning anything on funds received from anyone, so this program really does work out well over a longer period of time (> 5 years) if they will pay out 5%.

I thought the ATA had a Young shooter's program. Isn't called sub Junior, Junior and Junior Gold? Why have both programs?

The old system of Presub, Subjuior, Junior worked just fine. They had to register 500 targets to establish an average. There was A B C D in each Division. The teams could be made up using a combination of class shooters with in their division to establish a set goal total for the 5 shooters. I used to use this system at our club on team shoots,worked just fine! You will always find that Coach who wants to win at no cost and will cherry pick a team,hard to control.To me using a Lewis system at the State and National level is wrong!

Now with some of the kids registering targets and some not makes it hard to come up with an average. So you have nothing to work with in establishing any type of average.

To me the goal of the AIM program should be to build the shooter base not shove them off into a corner of the Trapshooting world. I have 60 kids shooting in our program, you could mix them in with the adults anywhere and there would not be a problem. They have been taught how to conduct them self, they know the rules.

You make a good point Tachyon in you last sentence!

Different time, different world in the life of ATA these days!!

Dennis

The reasons above are why, in my eyes, the AIM program is a "separate" youth organization for the ATA. AIM uses a different classification system. AIM uses a different awards system. Yes, AIM kids can participate as an ATA shooter and declare a category (sub-jr, jr, etc) There is nothing wrong in shooting either/both programs. The national AIM tournament has grown into a large event and I hope continues to grow. It is extrememly difficult to organize/manage any large shooting event. Combining two national events, the Grand Ameican and the national AIM Championships, is a monumental task. I feel that giving each group the full attention of the management/staff gives both groups the best event.

trapwife,

This is first time they used the Lexis classification for scoring.In all years past, they used the A, B, C, D sysyem. This is also the first year the AIM kids were not included in the Grand. They ( the ATA) keeps telling us we have the same rights and priveledges as adult ATA members, but...

It is still my opinion that the reason the AIM shoot was put in front of Grand was the ATA figured that not as many kids wuld stay and shoot the Grand. And once again take home half the Handicaps events and most of the money.

Remember, a 14 year old won the $100,000 last year and there is even bigger money available this year. They are hoping that if most of the kids are gone before the "Real" Grand starts, the grown-ups can have their game back.

For me, a coach with 40 kids on my team, the AIM Program is so much more work then the SCTP. For awhile, in AIM, I needed to know everyone's age on September 1st, keep track of how many targets each of my kids shot and then what everyone's average was. It was just a huge headache! I'm thinking that this years Lewis system is a result of the coaches, like me, complaining about all the crap they were required to manage. Truthfully if the AIM Program didn't do away with all the target requirements and all the crap they forced me to maintain this year, I was going to drop AIM from my program.

Our team has attended the AIM national championships every year and also SCTP in the past. We have several shooters that participate in the Grand also. I asked parents that have attended AIM before and they all said that they loved having it on Monday and Tuesday. When the AIM is on the weekend the crowd is almost unbearable. The young shooters are able to use all the fields for competition and the shooters aren't hurried off the field after awards so that shoot-offs can take place.

As far as the Lewis, I had a very hard time explaining to the teams how their score didn't win a trophy but a team that shot 40 birds less won a Division 2 1st place. It also was hard for the shooters traveling back on Sunday, with the Class division the coaches were able to keep up with the scores and if there were enough teams ahead in scores the shooters knew they could start the trip home. Several shooters stayed this year for an additional 4 hours just to hear that they were in the middle of the cuts.

We gave up on the awards after a2 wait for the 4 o'clock start.We had 5 hr. ride and a grandson that started football in the morning. We got a call that Chip and Crack won a divison. I had 2 grandsons on the squad, Jake shot 192 and Jeremy shot a 188. Jeremy got the trophy for his score.That took some explaining. Nobody fell asleep on the way home. Jack A.

Is that one PDF the only thing they are going to post? What about the squad\team results? There is nothing listed on the AIM's Championship page. I guess they are too busy taking care of the adults.

Roger8918,

I'm with you, I think these scores are all we're going to get. This just bolsters my opinion that the ATA is blowing smoke. The kids don't matter to them

Like others stated above, the "Shooting Carnival" was a waste of time. We went there to compete, not play games. No guns were able to be demoed on Saturday or Sunday. Some vendors weren't even open yet. The scoring system sucked.

The only thing that was good was the weather (the ATA couldn't control that) and our kids shot well.

Well since it didn't look like AIM was going to do it, I took the PDF that tachyon posted and dumped the results into Excel and resorted the results by score and category. Enjoy!

http://masondixonclaybusters.com/uploads/2012-AIM-Championships.pdf

We attended this years grand 1st. time ever and these are my views on the event.

We arrived before our coach, so we really had no idea on what to do. My son wanted to compete in the carnival, but we were told not to sign up! Had no idea what he meant but the wonderful workers helped up through everything! They did a fantastic job.

As for the carnival!

It was a great idea! So many of these kids are so stressed out from shooting trap some fun shooting was just what the doctor ordered. The only down side to it, was that shooters could only participate once. I agree that the first time they shoot, should be for score, to keep kids with deep pockets from practicing all day long, to win the event. The kids had so much fun they should have been able to shoot again just for fun, no score.

I spoke to a father who brought his 10yr. old son down to shoot the AIM grand and they bought $150.00 worth of special event tickets only to learn they would only need $25.00 worth to shoot everything.

Here was a place for the ATA to make some spare money, I would have paid to let my son shoot any special event as often as he wanted, as long as he was having fun.

Parent / Coach shoot

This was a great idea and a way for the kids to cheer on there trap shooting leader. However, I think a (parent/guardian) shoot where the parent and the child shot together would have been a great idea as well. Combine the two scores and see who comes out on top. Plus, the added fun of shooting with your child and competing together would have been great.

Classification vs. Lewis

Neither system is perfect. And for me, I could care less what system they use. My son hit a personal best of 99/100 targets in his second 100 targets. Since, his first score was an 88/100 he most likely would not have won even if they used the class system. I like to think that the reaction from his family and friends far out weighed any trophy. Do your best and if you are rewarded for it even better!

Test Guns (demo)

Who cares we can't afford them anyway!

Vendors

Great free bees for the kids great prices on shirts and gear! I saw Beretta had trap shooting vests for $25.00 and they were really nice! We left with a lot of stuff and money in our pockets!

Organization!

Here was the only part that was slightly lacking. Not terribly but still not great. The special event guys were clueless as to whether the kids could shoot more then once. Trophies were not handed out on time, leaving most of us north easterners sitting in a puddle of our own sweat. I understand that this is a work in progress and if these are the only complaints I can make then they did a great job.

When to hold the AIM

I think that holding it before the actual grand cut down on a great deal of confusion and made for a stronger event. If your child wants to shoot in the grand then do what I did, take a few days off of work and let him stay and shoot. I was told that the problem with having the AIM and the Grand at the same time was for the all American youth shooters. Apparently the AIM singles ran at the same time as a grand event that was worth all American points. We are not at that level. I really think that separating the two events but having them run back to back was the best for the kids.

This is what I thought of the event, whether you agree or not it's just my take on it!

It was a great experience and is something I can now cross off my bucket list. The best was me, my son and my father all shooting practice! Priceless moment.

roger8918

Thanks for doing this. Yhis will make it easier to explain to the kids how the scores and awards were done. Would sure like to see the squad standings like this, too.

2012 AIM Championship scores by squads.

http://masondixonclaybusters.com/uploads/2012AIMChampionshipALL.pdf

Roger8918

Thanks for your effort. Great job!!

Keep the kids shooting!!

BBB

Roger8918 You did a fine job with that spread sheet. Ever think of going to work for AIM?

Thanks again,

Thanks, I'm glad it helped. It took me a little over an hour to put those numbers together, and that's counting the time it took me to rip it out of the original PDF. If I would have direct had access to the base data it would have been a 15 min job. I don't understand why it couldn't have been done by AIM. I appreciate having this type of information, it helps me, as a coach, prepare and assess my shooters.